Instinctive or "Planned" fencing?

[peterlista]

Alright, I couldn't make it into a poll (I still can't figure that out), but it it still worth the discussion. And although I am looking for information about epee, I welcome reactions from all weapons.

When fencing, do you tend to go into a bout with a formulated plan as to what your actions will be, or are you leaning more on your instincts to tell you what to do?

[Allen Evans]

It would be silly to go into a bout -- having information about an opponent -- and not use that information.

It would also be silly to go into a bout with a fencer completely unknown to you, and not have an outline of a plan to get information about your opponent.

A

[Hailene]

As a saberist, there's no real choice but to have something planned from the engarde line. Otherwise you're toast.

But keep this in mind, it's generally easier to modify or ditch a plan on the go then go in open-eyes and try to make up something on the fly.

When you go forward with a plan, you can ignore certain signs. It's a lot easier to get suckered or to miss something crucial if you have to pay attention to everything.

[noodle]

When fencing, do you tend to go into a bout with a formulated plan as to what your actions will be, or are you leaning more on your instincts to tell you what to do?

you do both.

[rg500g]

Indeed you do both. I'm going to be in a tournament in Dallas at the end of March and I know nothing about anybody save Mr. Dragonetti, and that's only because I found videos of him fencing. Even then, he will likely do something totally different fencing me than what I saw on the videos. My best approach will be to assess certain aspects of my opponent's technique and general behavior, xref against what I do and do not do well (hopefully w/o getting hammered in the mean time) then use a few SWAGs to define how I will fence the bout. Sooner or later I'll get caught flat footed, literally or figuratively, and pure instinct (panic, adrenaline, muscle memory, whatever) will take over and sooner or later a light will come on - hopefully the one I want.

[erooMynohtnA]

Alright, I couldn't make it into a poll (I still can't figure that out), but it it still worth the discussion. And although I am looking for information about epee, I welcome reactions from all weapons.

When fencing, do you tend to go into a bout with a formulated plan as to what your actions will be, or are you leaning more on your instincts to tell you what to do?

I don't like the word instinct. To me, it means something untrained and primal like a flinch, which fencing actions really aren't.

I would use the term intuition. And yes, sometimes you make a subconscious decision based upon a feeling or pure reaction, but you're seriously handicapping yourself if you don't analyze your opponent and your own fencing. I would say 99% of fencing actions have overlap between intuition and analysis.

And adding to what Allen said, you are continuously receiving information about your opponent, so you need to be continually refine your plan. It's silly to stick to a plan that isn't working.

[bigdawg2121]

Is this opponent any good relative to you? I think we can all say that we've been in situations where we were facing a much weaker opponent and just kinda decided to go with the flow or never made it past, " my plan is to hit them".

[masker]

Against someone of similar or higher skill level, I have not found it useful to formulate plans in advance of the bout except when I've already fenced that person a few times. Mere observation or second-hand information isn't enough on its own, though it can give me some initial ideas for "trials" which in turn can form the basis for plans created during the bout.

Is this opponent any good relative to you? I think we can all say that we've been in situations where we were facing a much weaker opponent and just kinda decided to go with the flow or never made it past, " my plan is to hit them".

For me, I find people of lower skill level than me to be the most profitable to plan against. They tend to be relatively predictable, with fewer modes of play they can turn to in the pressure of a bout.

[Hauptman]

Alright, I couldn't make it into a poll (I still can't figure that out), but it it still worth the discussion. And although I am looking for information about epee, I welcome reactions from all weapons.

When fencing, do you tend to go into a bout with a formulated plan as to what your actions will be, or are you leaning more on your instincts to tell you what to do?

There should always be a plan, and you're probably following one anyway even if it is just habitual.

I like to think of it as a flow chart. I do A and then based on the results I move to B or C or whatever.

You always have SOME information about your opponent that should influence your decisions. Is he taller, shorter, older, younger, what is his ranking, right handed or left?

Then you should always have some actions, based on your strengths and weaknesses, that you will be prioritizing.

Finally, you should have some method of feeling out your opponent. What are you going to do to analyze his game without giving away yours? What is your planned distance? What moves are you going to start with? Attack? Counter? Simple? Compound?

You will be obviously be making adjustments on the fly, but you should always have a known starting point, and have prioritized your options. This is the kind of fencing you can do when you're not actually fencing; visualization.

[dramamine]

I'd say make a plan based on what you've seen and what you're good at, if you've watched the person fence. If you've fenced them before of course that's good too.

I'd hesitate before taking most people's advice though, or trying things you saw other people do unless you feel like you can do something extremely similar. Say fencer A has a great counter 6 fleche with a very strong taking of the blade that works most of the time on fencer B. If fencer C, a skinny french gripper who rarely attacks, sees A beat B and asks fencer A for advice and A says "oh just take 6 and fleche, it works like 75% of the time" fencer C probably can't emulate this and shouldn't bother trying, at least not more that once. C might think to himself though, "what does it mean when that action always works?" maybe B leaves his blade out a lot, can't deal with engagements in six, panicks when the other fencer does fleche attacks, whatever.

You can certainly benefit from watching people though and come up with ways to implement your favourite actions. If you notice someone has a very accurate counter attack and you don't feel confident taking the blade, maybe you know you have to be very patient and resist the urge to attack even when you feel like you might be able to. Or maybe you have a strong parry riposte and you see they have a great direct fleche so you know to keep a bit bigger distance so you can react in time, etc.

[Inquartata]

Apart from selecting what opening to use ( mostly footwork ), I am almost entirely reactive. Or maybe I should say I have more success when I'm entirely reactive; when I try to plan it seldom comes out well.

[peterlista]

I would use the term intuition. And yes, sometimes you make a subconscious decision based upon a feeling or pure reaction, but you're seriously handicapping yourself if you don't analyze your opponent and your own fencing. I would say 99% of fencing actions have overlap between intuition and analysis.

Here I would agree, intuition does seem to be a better descriptor to what I am thinking of. I want to say that it may also have something to do with if you tend to be on the offense or defense. A defensive action may have to be much more intuitive than an offensive action, as you do not know (with certainty anyways) what your opponent will do.

Against someone of similar or higher skill level, I have not found it useful to formulate plans in advance of the bout except when I've already fenced that person a few times. Mere observation or second-hand information isn't enough on its own, though it can give me some initial ideas for "trials" which in turn can form the basis for plans created during the bout.

As a new fencer (having fenced epee for the first time at a tournament yesterday), I have very little information about my opponents (only what I have seen that day on the strip) and kind of have to rely on "intuition" to tell me the best course of action. At least at this point in my fencing career, this seems to be how I have fenced (and done relatively well considering my lack of training and practice in epee).

[Allen Evans]

In any discussion like this, I would refer, first, to this excellant blog entry:

http://www.fencing.net/forums/blogs/...n-a-bout-4811/

[Gav]

Alright, I couldn't make it into a poll (I still can't figure that out), but it it still worth the discussion. And although I am looking for information about epee, I welcome reactions from all weapons.

When fencing, do you tend to go into a bout with a formulated plan as to what your actions will be, or are you leaning more on your instincts to tell you what to do?

It must be a bit of both. This is not a binary sport.

[Bonehead]

A lot of this fall under Czajkowski's classifications of Forseen, Partly Forseen and Unforseen Actions:

http://www.fencing.ca/coaching/fenci...ns_cza_eng.pdf

I personally try to go into every bout with a 'plan'. However this plan almost never includes specific actions, or even general actions come to think of it...

Mostly I like to worry about the things that I know will get me into trouble. "Be aware of and control the distance", "Don't let the same action happen twice against you", "Be aware of what works and what doesn't".

[peterlista]

I personally try to go into every bout with a 'plan'. However this plan almost never includes specific actions, or even general actions come to think of it...

Mostly I like to worry about the things that I know will get me into trouble. "Be aware of and control the distance", "Don't let the same action happen twice against you", "Be aware of what works and what doesn't".

See, now I don't know if that is a plan. I guess those are things I would think everyone with some fencing experience ought to know and do automatically. I am not sure that adjusting ones game is an example of "planning" out a bout.

[Bonehead]

In that case then no. I never go into a bout with a plan.

I've put myself in a lot of trouble in the past by watching someone fence, or fencing them before and believing that a certain action "Should" work. Then I execute it relentlessly not understanding why it doesn't, when I probably should have been more open minded and looked for things to do rather than fencing off my preconceived ideas.

I might have an action or two that I might try, but other than that, no plan.

[I_luv_saber]

I generally have a strategy planned out beforehand. I don't say a "plan", because it would be too rigid to say "Okay, I will do this and this". Rather, I just have a rough guideline going into it of what I want to focus on. Based on observations before and during the bout, I may for example decide to focus more on feints or preparations or something like that, if I noticed my opponent is prone to falling for traps. This of course must be adapted throughout a bout, but by the time I come en guard before each exchange I generally have a rough idea of what I'd like to do.

Regarding "instinct", I think it is to an extent instinct, just honed. You've trained yourself not to automatically react with a flinch, but a parry or increase of distance, or whatever. To that end, you must use this in order to improvise over the course of the bout.

Basically, a lot of mumbo jumbo saying exactly what a lot of others have said: elements of both.

[peterlista]

Basically, a lot of mumbo jumbo saying exactly what a lot of others have said: elements of both.

Right, I definitely would agree that there are elements of both in a bout. I sometimes hear fencers say that they come to a bout with a "plan" as to what actions they will try and how they will set up their defense or offense. But then I also hear fencers saying that they act a lot on intuition and don't come to a bout with any specific plan other than, "Score more points than my opponent."

I guess they are both likely saying the same thing; that they come to the strip knowing their own strengths and weaknesses and then utilize them throughout the bout... I guess I just wouldn't call this a plan.

[I_luv_saber]

Me neither, which is why I avoided that word. I think "strategy" is far better, as it still has certain goals and tactics in mind, but implies more generalities and improvisation than a concrete "plan". Inability to adapt during a bout is not good. As is, IMO, stepping up to en guard every time without any ideas of what you want to accomplish (aside from "stabby stabby").