Safety - Do I really need FIE Gear?

[yearsofwisdom]

As many people say, all you need is a FIE Mask and FIE plastron. Is this true? i really don't have the money to buy a FIE jacket yet i still want good protection and comfort. Also the jacket i have now is perfectly fine. Is this the way to go? I'm definitely purchasing the Allstar FIE mask though and i'm considering the Allstar FIE plastron. Is this enough to provide ample safety/ these are the FIE parts i should get first.

[catwood1]

If you're looking to make sure you don't get dead, then yes, those 2 will do nicely. I'd say a mask is the first FIE item to get, and a plastron is second. Followed by a Jacket, then knickers.

Just my .02.

[melensdad]

i'm considering the Allstar FIE plastron.

We had a situation with one of our high school fencers just before Christmas. In a saber match between two reasonably inexperienced young fencers who were very aggressive, a blade broke with about 6" of the tip snapping off when my fencer parried the attack. The broken blade then punctured his lame, his jacket, his plastron, his t-shirt and gave him about a 5" gash under his ribs, there was about a 2 inch space above that gash and then a puncture where the blade went into his skin, around his ribs and exited out his back. The blade NEVER entered the chest cavity, it was on his extreme left side and he was fortunate that there was no serious injury and only needed a couple of stitches.

I was the quasi-medic on the scene as I carry an extensive first aid kit for my daughter (due to a health issue she has) but because of that the team has come to rely on me for all the team medic needs.

The Nun who sponsors our fencing team and approved saber for the first time last year grabbed me and had me on the scene pretty quickly, and several minutes before the EMTs, ambulance, etc showed up. The opposing saber coach was at the strip when the accident occurred and his quick action stopped the match, he also removed the blade and started applying pressure to the wound and really deserves a huge amount of credit for taking care of our student. Once the pros showed up I had some time to talk with the Sister and she seemed to be thinking about canceling our saber program.

Fortunately we still have our saber program, fortunately the boy who was injured was back to fencing after a 2 week doctor ordered layoff, but our team adopted FIE standard plastrons as MANDATORY. While our team requires the students to buy their own plastrons, the school dusted off the check book and paid for all new FIE plastrons and required them to be worn by all the fencers in the very next tournament.

Further, I traded a couple of emails with the coach of the fencer who "stabbed" our fencer. It is my understanding that the other team has also adopted FIE standard plastrons for all their student fencers.

Now, at least with saber, our head coach did some digging around and tried to find other instances of saber fencers being 'stabbed' during bouts. Quite simply she could not find any recent events. She did tell me, and I did hear from another coach, that there was such an event that occurred in 1972 (or '76). I have no clue about stabbing type injuries in other events but we talked about this at our club and there were several instances there were brought up using other weapons.

[erooMynohtnA]

Hey, you should have started a thread about that. That should have been big news in our region and I never even heard about it.

Also, I would like to stress to anyone reading this thread, that in the case of a puncture wound, you never remove the object, because that will cause further damage and bleeding. The coach could have killed his fencer in different circumstances.

[Purple Fencer]

From what I've seen from similar blade breaks, I'd guess the injury was more a result of the inexperienced fencer overdoing it...it's fencing...not slapping wildly.

Have that kid learn proper technique and the chances of a similar injury will drop a lot, even with the same break pattern.

VERY glad your fencer got off light...but the next time one of the staff uses this incident as an excuse to drop part of the fencing program, ask them if they'd have the same thought after a footballer gets a concussion.

Go to my website....there's a link to a Powerpoint presentation with the chances of an emergency room visit in HS sports.

[melensdad]

Hey, you should have started a thread about that. That should have been big news in our region and I never even heard about it.

Also, I would like to stress to anyone reading this thread, that in the case of a puncture wound, you never remove the object, because that will cause further damage and bleeding. The coach could have killed his fencer in different circumstances.

A couple things. First I was not a member here at the time. Second, it is true that in the case of many stabbing injuries that the object should not be removed. HOWEVER, in many cases it is reasonable to remove the object if the circumstances are acceptable. In this case the coach on the scene who removed the blade had good reason to believe that the blade was completely outside the rib cage so there was no risk of a puncture to a vital organ. I'm not sure that I would have made that same call but I was not on the strip at the time. I give him a lot of credit for his actions as he was there while I was on another strip with our girls saber team. He did what he felt was correct, and in retrospect it was correct, so I believe he assessed the situation correctly and made the correct decision.

When I got to the fencer he had him in a chair and was applying pressure. I showed up a minute or two later with the medical kit and we were able to get him undressed to really inspect the wound while simultaneously getting a gauze compress on the wound.

So yes, in many cases you do not want to remove the object in a stabbing/puncture wound. However if you are confident that the wound is not in the chest cavity or some other area where a major organ or artery could be involved, then it is not unreasonable to remove the object. Again, while I was a 'second responder' I do support the decision of the coach to remove the blade, even if my initial impression would be to not remove the blade.


JMO

[Hauptman]

If you're looking to make sure you don't get dead, then yes, those 2 will do nicely. I'd say a mask is the first FIE item to get, and a plastron is second. Followed by a Jacket, then knickers.

Just my .02.

This would be my approach too.

[migopod]

I believe that the most important priority should be to buy your opponent FIE blades, and subsequently to be my opponent.

TIA

[erooMynohtnA]

A couple things. First I was not a member here at the time. Second, it is true that in the case of many stabbing injuries that the object should not be removed. HOWEVER, in many cases it is reasonable to remove the object if the circumstances are acceptable. In this case the coach on the scene who removed the blade had good reason to believe that the blade was completely outside the rib cage so there was no risk of a puncture to a vital organ. I'm not sure that I would have made that same call but I was not on the strip at the time. I give him a lot of credit for his actions as he was there while I was on another strip with our girls saber team. He did what he felt was correct, and in retrospect it was correct, so I believe he assessed the situation correctly and made the correct decision.

When I got to the fencer he had him in a chair and was applying pressure. I showed up a minute or two later with the medical kit and we were able to get him undressed to really inspect the wound while simultaneously getting a gauze compress on the wound.

So yes, in many cases you do not want to remove the object in a stabbing/puncture wound. However if you are confident that the wound is not in the chest cavity or some other area where a major organ or artery could be involved, then it is not unreasonable to remove the object. Again, while I was a 'second responder' I do support the decision of the coach to remove the blade, even if my initial impression would be to not remove the blade.


JMO

I wasn't there so it's not like I know how bad it was or what it looked like. It sounds like the most important thing in that situation was to keep the fencer and everyone else calm, and certainly removing the saber sticking out of him helped. However, I think it is almost never worth the risk, given the many tissue-damage problems that could arise.

My point is still don't take things out of people if you're not a medical expert.

[yearsofwisdom]

wow that's great. Hopefully they're fine now. i do fence foil so i think my risks are a little lower but from what i see, the FIE mask and the FIE plastron im definitely getting tomorrow. Are the allstar fie mask and fie plastron good choices?

[erooMynohtnA]

Why would your risks from a thrust penetrating your uniform be lower in a point-only weapon?

[yearsofwisdom]

well i don't usually fence against people that flesh alot or continue to go on after the blade breaks...

[erooMynohtnA]

Most saber fencers don't fence against people who fleche a lot either.

[yearsofwisdom]

point is thrusting that even if the blade breaks is safer than slashing and having the blade break.

[erooMynohtnA]

Point is, your incomprehensible stupidy and hanging participles aside, how many slashing deaths have there been in fencing?

[damianip]

point is thrusting that even if the blade breaks is safer than slashing and having the blade break.

I'm not sure that i'm reading this correctly:

Are you saying that a blade broken during a cutting action is more dangerous than one which breaks in a thrusting action?


Paolo

[melensdad]

point is thrusting that even if the blade breaks is safer than slashing and having the blade break.

From the standpoint of an armourer, a broken blade in Epee or Foil would be far more dangerous than a broken blade in Saber. I see (and replace) a lot more Saber blades break during practice or competition, seems like big matches have 1 or 2 break during bouts and at the club or team practices probably see 1 or 2 a month break. But despite that frequency of blade breaks in Saber, I've only seen one person get hurt due to a broken Saber blade. As stated earlier, others did some research and it took them back ~40 years for the last similar event. OTOH, seems like FIE has recorded a few rare deaths from stabbing injuries in the other blades.

Point is, your incomprehensible stupidy and hanging participles aside. . .

Seriously does everyone here need to be an English major to post on these forums That was simply uncalled for.

[Mergs]

What?!?!? a puncture wound from a broken saber blade? Well, that's nigh on impossible if you read the visor mask threads!! [Sarcasm/Off]

My point is that yes, a broken saber blade is every much a hazard as a broken foil or epee blade in terms of concentrating a lot of force and impact on a very small area.

MelenDad, that was a great rundown on how to deal with such a situation. Thank God you were there with your med kit and knowledge. This makes 5 or 6 instances of puncture wounds caused by blades (broken and unbroken) that I personally know of, outside of the ones that have been widely published, ie the failed foil visor mask, the french epeeist who was killed, etc. The wounds ranged from simple penetration of the leg, to collapsed lungs and one going through a mask, entering just below the fencers left eye and exiting just below the left ear. I also appreciate the title of this thread, as was hammered into us at Armorer's College, SAFETY is our number one concern.

Anyway, yes, FIE Mask and plastron should be the minimum requirement, especially for young fencers.

[brtech]

While I agree that the order you want to acquire FIE gear is mask first, plastron second, jacket third, knickers 4th, it really is important to have two layers of 800 NT protection. It's all in the numbers. Really, a 350 nt plastron and an 800 NT jacket has MORE protection than an 800 nt plastron plus a 350 NT jacket, because the jacket covers more area than the plastron does. However, as a practical matter, the FIE plastron costs less, so you might get it sooner, and I think that's more important.

So, if you have to replace a jacket, I think you should buy an FIE jacket. "Replace" is a key word: if you have been fencing long enough that you have gone through one jacket, then you NEED to make your replacement FIE.

If your jacket is still serviceable, and you can afford to buy an FIE plastron even though you don't really need to replace it, then get the plastron: the most bang for the buck.

If you have to replace your knickers, get FIE knickers. Same argument.

It's my opinion that we should not permit anyone to fence at any national or regional tournament in anything less than FIE mask and whites.

[melensdad]

MelenDad, that was a great rundown on how to deal with such a situation. Thank God you were there with your med kit and knowledge.
. . .
Anyway, yes, FIE Mask and plastron should be the minimum requirement, especially for young fencers.

Just for clarity, the real credit goes to the opposing team's coach, as I stated I was a second responder, it just happened that I carry a large med kit and had what was needed.

As for the safety, yes I am now more convinced that a safe sport can be made even safer by using equipment made to higher safety standards. Think about it differently, how many people would DOWNGRADE their car brakes and NOT get the anti-lock system? Or how many would choose to order a modern car without an airbag? I think with many fencing parents (as I am one) we look at 2 jackets and don't comprehend the differences, we are told we need a plastron and don't realize the functional importance.

As I build my daughter's weapons I refuse to buy the Chinese blades, but don't necessarily buy her FIE blades. Most of her blades are Leon Paul but I'm not exclusive to that brand. I simply want a blade that I can trust to break cleanly if/when it is going to break. I do not trust the cheaper chinese blades to do that, I've seen to much substandard metallurgy from the orient to trust the Chinese blades.

Our H.S. now requires FIE plastrons, but its oddly not on the website where it lists the equipment that students must provide for themselves. Despite the accident in December, and despite the fact that all our kids now have FIE plastrons, our website does not list FIE plastrons and also suggests that a typical plastron costs about $20. Clearly no FIE plastron is that inexpensive (I'll be contacting the school about this ASAP).