Safety - Do I really need FIE Gear?

[twohands]

There was a good report on fencing injuries in the 1st Congress on Science and Technology in Fencing that took place in Barcelona in 2008. I quote from the abstract:"the extensive innovations introduced into sabre fencing over the past decade and the composition and structure of sabre blades may be inteacting to increase the risk of specific types of penetrating injuries. The case study of a complete penetrating wound to the lateral neck of a female fencer by a broken blade in 2006 emphasizes the need to test the fatigue characteristics of sabre blades". The study was presented by Dr. Peter A. Harmer, from the FIE Medical Commision. The wound reported above was mere millimeters away from resulting in a fatality. He also reported 20 cases of non-broken blades penetrating hand injuries. All of this illustrated with pictures and even a video of the neck wound. The penetration of the blade into the fencer´s neck could be clearly seen. If you saw the pictures you would be scared. I was. Some of the blades went into the hand, through the glove, and exited through the elbow or shoulder. Dr. Harmer said that wet gloves can be risky, but there are not statistically significant differences between wet and dry gloves. The study concluded that female sabre fencer´s have the highest injury rate. The good news is that penetrating/puncture injuries are just 3% of 0,03 injuries per 1000 events, most of them being bruises, sprains, and similar cases. So please, get FIE equipment and keep it in a good condition. Fencing accidents are fortunately rare, but thet DO happen.

[chinbeard]

Seriously does everyone here need to be an English major to post on these forums That was simply uncalled for.

Your right tell it like it is!

[Allen Evans]

If the plastron in the accident was not FIE, I'd be curious how old the plastron was and how many wash cycles it had gone through. Once, while picking up after a NAC, I found an abandoned nylon plastron (non-FIE) that had obviously seen a lot of wear (the straps had been replaced using some amateur stitching, and the plastron itself was badly faded and frayed around the edges). This plastron probably met the legal requirements for protection, but I think it would have failed under the kind of accident described.

Non-FIE doesn't necessary imply "not safe" or "not as safe as FIE". I used a cotton plastron for a very long time and it deflected at least one broken foil blade quite adequately. However, equipment that has been modified, shows signs of extreme wear, or is in bad repair should not be trusted no matter what it's made out of.

With all that said, I agree that a fencers first FIE purchase should be an FIE mask, followed by a plastron, jacket and knickers. The safest way to avoid a fencing injury is not to fence, but if you can't do that, FIE equipment is your best line of defense.

[JayhawkPawn]

I don't fully agree with the majority of the people in the thread, I do believe that 350N should be a standard, but 800N isn't always necessary. There was a video of Barry Paul doing the biro test on 200N, 350N, and 800N fabric (two layers of 200N meets 350N standards, btw), where he pushes a bic pen through the fabric. The 200 is hard, the 350 is very hard, and the 800 is DNI.

As for the safety issue, 350N should be the -bare minimum- for jackets, as i've expressed in a thread a while ago, after taking two broken LP blades to the chest, the second one also finished on my throat, by a 200 lb man running full speed at me. Neither pierced my jacket, and both left massive bruises behind. My jacket did not fail, neither did my mask. Neither are 800N.

Mind you, I did my research, bought quality gear, and have no doubt as to the newton rating of what I wear to protect me from 90cm of steel, which I think is almost as important as the newton rating on the jacket.

There aren't a lot of fencing companies I trust to wear their gear, (and more importantly, trust for my wife to wear) and I have to pay (A LOT) to get it. Allstar and Ulhman aren't among them, anymore. I've seen many, many of their FIE masks fail inspection, and the 'made in china' tag doesn't do much for me. Anyone remember the JL brand of fencing gear? I've ripped through those jackets, and we don't allow them in the club anymore.

I've been a vocal supporter of Escrime International since Rick started the company, and a vocal supporter of making fun of the Pauls, but I trust their gear too. That's about it. In the end, I wear 350N jacket and pants, a 350N mask, and an FIE plastron, only 'cause my wife got me one for christmas.

For you vendors, how often does your stuff get tested?

[Inquartata]

Your right tell it like it is!

Sarcasm, or unintentional irony?

[erooMynohtnA]

Seriously does everyone here need to be an English major to post on these forums That was simply uncalled for.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. By incomprehensibly stupid I was just pointing out that the information he was putting forth was retarded. The dangling participle bit was the only bit about his writing. You should have seen what I wanted to say. It's a good thing I am so polite.

[I_luv_saber]

Sarcasm, or unintentional irony?

what do you mean.

[melensdad]

If the plastron in the accident was not FIE, I'd be curious how old the plastron was and how many wash cycles it had gone through.

The plastron in the accident I described was NOT an FIE rated plastron.

I believe the fencer is a 1st year Saber fencer (he is a sophomore but I think this was his first year fencing) so the plastron would have been approximately 2 months old at the time of the accident. It was/is rated at 350N. I do not know the plastron's brand.

I have no idea how many times it was washed, but I did inspect it very carefully and had it in my possession until he returned to school after the Christmas break. It appeared to be a nearly new plastron.

[erooMynohtnA]

Wow, I am surprised that it was actually rated and got punctured apparently so easily. Do you happen to know what the jacket was? And did the blade go through a seam at any point?

[Purple Fencer]

Wow, I am surprised that it was actually rated and got punctured apparently so easily. Do you happen to know what the jacket was? And did the blade go through a seam at any point?

A fair question....the way I read the original description, tho, it sounds like a puncture through the material itself.

Punctures CAN happen (obviously)....the stuff's puncture resistant...not puncture proof.

And MD....any blade can break flat or with a point....it's a myth that FIE blades break flat. I've seen flat carbon steel breaks and pointed FIE breaks.....the FIEs simply break less frequently.

[Inquartata]

Maybe the one bright side of the practice of "canting" tangs in sabre is that so many sabre blade breaks occur right at the guard, leaving nothing to pierce an opponent...

[melensdad]

Wow, I am surprised that it was actually rated and got punctured apparently so easily. Do you happen to know what the jacket was? And did the blade go through a seam at any point?

Did not go through a seam, clean puncture through the material of the lame, the jacket, the plastron and the t-shirt. I do not know the brand of the plastron, I believe (but am not 100% sure) that the jacket is a Triplett, not sure of the lame (its a team lame but have multiple brands that the fencers share).

And MD....any blade can break flat or with a point....it's a myth that FIE blades break flat. I've seen flat carbon steel breaks and pointed FIE breaks...

I never said that FIE blades break flat. I will still not use any of the Chinese blades as I've worked with and seen the Chinese metallugy fail on supposedly high quality tractors and other heavy equipment. I do not trust it. I'll stick with non-Chinese blades for my daughter's equipment and opine my 2-bits on the team equipment.

[cplmontana]

Alright, that's good enough for me. I like my core. Time to spring for the FIE plastron.

Anyone used this one here? Seems to be the most protection for the buck.

http://leonpaulusa.com/acatalog/Mens...Protector.html

[DangerMouse]

There was a good report on fencing injuries in the 1st Congress on Science and Technology in Fencing that took place in Barcelona in 2008 ... was presented by Dr. Peter A. Harmer, from the FIE Medical Commision.

I just want to add that Peter Harmer is a professor of sports medicine at Willamette University and is (was?) the head trainer for the USFA. I know that he was compiling statistics about the incidence rate of various types of injuries at fencing tournaments, so if anyone wants hard stats he is the one to contact.

[Hauptman]

What it takes for a weapon to penetrate our equipment is very unpredictable.

This happened to me many years ago; long before the current equipment standards.

I was fencing in a foil tournament, and during my simple attack with a lunge my opponent foolishly counter-attacked. His point caught on my sleeve and penetrated the outer layer of the sleeve, and the inner layer. It then slid down my entire arm, under the plastron, and went through my t-shirt, stopping on my ribs in my arm-pit. There was no tearing apparent; the weapon left neat little tip sized holes at each spot.

While I had one long thin bruise down the length of my arm, and a nice bruise on my ribs, I wasn't seriously hurt. Why? The weapon was not broken; the electrical tip was still intact. It did, however, scare the hell out of me and everyone else around as it happened.

[Purple Fencer]

What it takes for a weapon to penetrate our equipment is very unpredictable.

This happened to me many years ago; long before the current equipment standards.

I was fencing in a foil tournament, and during my simple attack with a lunge my opponent foolishly counter-attacked. His point caught on my sleeve and penetrated the outer layer of the sleeve, and the inner layer. It then slid down my entire arm, under the plastron, and went through my t-shirt, stopping on my ribs in my arm-pit. There was no tearing apparent; the weapon left neat little tip sized holes at each spot.

While I had one long thin bruise down the length of my arm, and a nice bruise on my ribs, I wasn't seriously hurt. Why? The weapon was not broken; the electrical tip was still intact. It did, however, scare the hell out of me and everyone else around as it happened.

Flat tip or pineapple/pancake??

[Hauptman]

Flat tip or pineapple/pancake??

Flat tip; a modern style electric foil tip. Go figure.