New tungsten pommels - really! - and a question for you epeeists

[EldRick]

Well, I've got the first batch of the tungsten Pistol-grip balancing weight on order, due in April. Nothing further about it at this time except the name - the Orthopedic Balance Weight - yep, it's OBW-1...

However, I've also got a new bug up it, and I've been designing a heavy French-grip pommel specifically for:

- epeeists who often pommel - existing pommels don't really balance an epee blade well, and aren't particularly hand-friendly

- heavier blades - having a balance point close to the guard reduces the work the hand has to do, and promotes better blade control. Since there is an upper limit on the length of grip+pommel, you can't move the pommel very far aft for balance, and having the weight closer to your hand works better anyway.

- small hands - folks with smaller hands sometimes find that a long French grip is in the way of their forearm - a heavier pommel means you can use a shorter grip+pommel length

So with that as background, I'm trying to determine how heavy this heavy pommel should be, and I'd appreciate comments on ideal pommel weight for these uses.

I'm presently using an LP Standard epee blade, and it balances about 3/4" in front of the guard with a 190g prototype pommel and no spacer washers.

I'd like to make the new French pommel heavier, but the question is how much heavier? Keep in mind that this will be aft-end weighted like a Schermasport, only more so. About 85% of the weight would be in the aft 2cm.

I've had suggestions in the 200-210g range, and my current design calls for right around 210g. Does anyone have a good reason for heavier? Or lighter?

[chinbeard]

The world is facing an imminent and serious tungsten shortage. I beg you to change your material.

[EldRick]

Trouble with other metals is that to get a dense as tungsten, you'd have to use gold, platinum, or depleted uranium. Lead isn't heavy enough, at (11g/cc) vs. tungsten(18.5g/cc).

Silver would actually be about the right density for a heavy one-piece pommel, and only about $100 in silver per pommel, but somehow I don't think the fencing world is quite ready for the $200 pommel at this time...

[JacoKierkegaard]

I can't comment on the French grip application, but I'm very interested in the pistol grip version.

[rg500g]

Actually, I need the lightest pommel I can find. I use LP non FIE and Vniti FIE blades, with a metal cored french grip, and for what I do I need the least weight possible at the end of the tang. I've tried the LP lightweight racket handle, and while it works it feels very odd unless I'm gripping it way at the end. W/a 'normal' french grip and an airweight pommel I have more comfort in using the grip close to the guard, and the acceleration I need when pomelling. So, how many grams for the Ti pommel, and how much $?

[erooMynohtnA]

You're better off just using aluminum or Delron for that.

[damianip]

You're better off just using aluminum or Delron for that.

Delrin is pretty slippery for a pommel material. Pretty weak as well.

Why not a hollow pommel made from aluminum or HSS?

I'd have to approximate the volumes and the densities, but I think that this would result in a very light pommel.

Paolo

[K O'N]

Actually, I need the lightest pommel I can find. I use LP non FIE and Vniti FIE blades, with a metal cored french grip, and for what I do I need the least weight possible at the end of the tang. I've tried the LP lightweight racket handle, and while it works it feels very odd unless I'm gripping it way at the end. W/a 'normal' french grip and an airweight pommel I have more comfort in using the grip close to the guard, and the acceleration I need when pomelling. So, how many grams for the Ti pommel, and how much $?

The lightest pommel nut you can get is a pistol grip outside hex nut. Wrap in lots of tape to get a good grip. Or if you want a bigger light pommel, you could sink a couple of wingnuts of the correct threading in a cast epoxy pommel, or a wood pommel with the wingnuts glued in. Boatbuilders make fittings like that all the time, it's very strong.

K O'N

[whtouche]

The world is facing an imminent and serious tungsten shortage. I beg you to change your material.

Is this not really funny to anyone else?

[prototoast]

Is this not really funny to anyone else?

I just don't get it.

[piste off]

My college coach used to machine pommels, and he would measure them in grams and stamp them with the actual weight. He had various shapes and sizes, and as I recall (I still have one or two of them somewhere) they ranged from 175g to the low 200s (can't recall one above 225). When I used them, the the 185s were what I preferred.

R-

[Gav]

Well, I've got the first batch of the tungsten Pistol-grip balancing weight on order, due in April. Nothing further about it at this time except the name - the Orthopedic Balance Weight - yep, it's OBW-1...

However, I've also got a new bug up it, and I've been designing a heavy French-grip pommel specifically for:

- epeeists who often pommel - existing pommels don't really balance an epee blade well, and aren't particularly hand-friendly

- heavier blades - having a balance point close to the guard reduces the work the hand has to do, and promotes better blade control. Since there is an upper limit on the length of grip+pommel, you can't move the pommel very far aft for balance, and having the weight closer to your hand works better anyway.

- small hands - folks with smaller hands sometimes find that a long French grip is in the way of their forearm - a heavier pommel means you can use a shorter grip+pommel length

So with that as background, I'm trying to determine how heavy this heavy pommel should be, and I'd appreciate comments on ideal pommel weight for these uses.

I'm presently using an LP Standard epee blade, and it balances about 3/4" in front of the guard with a 190g prototype pommel and no spacer washers.

I'd like to make the new French pommel heavier, but the question is how much heavier? Keep in mind that this will be aft-end weighted like a Schermasport, only more so. About 85% of the weight would be in the aft 2cm.

I've had suggestions in the 200-210g range, and my current design calls for right around 210g. Does anyone have a good reason for heavier? Or lighter?

I am struggling to understand why you want you want to make your epee significantly heavier overall. Unless you want to weight train with it?

[EldRick]

Well, Gav, I guess that depends on your definition of "significantly heavier". I'm not sure that a couple of ounces placed behind the hand qualifies.

Both pommels will move the balance point back toward the guard, which many feel provides a "lighter" feel and improved point control, since the index finger and thumb don't have to rotate the CG of the weapon as far, and get better leverage on the mass. The tradeoff for easier rotation, of course, is slower lateral hand motion, but there is generally sufficient muscle in the forearm to move the hand.

When pommeling slightly in epee, in particular, a heavy pommel seems to make the blade feel more mobile and easier to control - it's easier to rotate the blade around it's CG if it's closer to your hand. You see many (moderately heavy) Schermasport pommels in use in epee.

The French pommel is an extension of the Schermasport pommel notion: more weight, distributed further to the aft end of the tang. It should be particularly useful for those who use stiff (heavy) blades.

The orthopedic-grip balancing weight is an experiment - my experience with an aft-weighted prototype grip (Balanced Russian grip) tells me that it gives a nice feel. Remains to be seen whether others like it, but I'll get some good feedback from our local A and B fencers.

We'll see how well they work. I'll be donating some to the US Olympic team fencers to try - perhaps you'll see some in use in London...

[Gav]

It'll be interesting to see how they work out.

I can tell you right now that, as an epeeist who has pomelled, that I remain to be convinced. There's a number of factors that I am not certain you've taken into account - position of the fulcrum for example. And I also have small hands.

[chinbeard]

What are you going to say to the millions of people who need X-rays, but can't get them because you selfishly squandered a significant amount of the world's tungsten? "Sorry, I guess you'll have to get a biopsy because I wanted to get rich making epee pommels"? This entire line of thought is disgusting, and I, for one, won't purchase your tungsten pommels, or any other products that you may produce, until you use an alternative material. I encourage others to follow suit.

[prototoast]

What are you going to say to the millions of people who need X-rays, but can't get them because you selfishly squandered a significant amount of the world's tungsten? "Sorry, I guess you'll have to get a biopsy because I wanted to get rich making epee pommels"? This entire line of thought is disgusting, and I, for one, won't purchase your tungsten pommels, or any other products that you may produce, until you use an alternative material. I encourage others to follow suit.

Okay, now this is funny.

[EldRick]

Well, according to USA Today, there is also a severe shortage of chicken wings. That's going to keep you out of a lot of bars...


BTW, the tungsten shortage is the reason why prices for the stuff are so high, thus driving the higher-than-desirable pricing of the pommels...

[migopod]

Well, according to USA Today, there is also a severe shortage of chicken wings. That's going to keep you out of a lot of bars...


BTW, the tungsten shortage is the reason why prices for the stuff are so high, thus driving the higher-than-desirable pricing of the pommels...

I would doubt that you have that large of a Tungsten Footprint compared to the welding electrode and lightbulb industries.

Are you using pure tungsten by the way or are you cutting it with thorium?

[piste off]

Okay, now this is funny.

Very tung-sten-cheek. I wish he would stop metaling in our business.

R-

[migopod]

Very tung-sten-cheek. I wish he would stop metaling in our business.

R-

He really is quite dense isn't he?