Nationals Schedule Posted

[mgriff]

(risking thread drift here)

Rather than investing energy in devising a complicated process for minimizing and balancing conflicts, it could well be a better idea--and more effective for the long run--to come up with an alternative schedule to replace SN, one that allows smaller, more focused championship tournaments without these multiple layers of conflicts.

Oh, wait, the TC already proposed something like that.

Mary

[eac]

Yes, this is true, but also people are not good at saying what they want.

It might work better to come up with something that seems reasonable, say what it is and what it comes out with, and then see who screams and how loudly.

Does anybody know if there's a canonical optimization algorithm for this? I was going to try a GA, but if people know that won't work, tell me.

Edit: No, I like SN. Meanie.

Edit 2: If you're going to argue about it, please do it in another thread. It would make things easier.

[eac]

Is it really good to assume that a set of fepee pools should take 2 hours and 27 minutes (21 bouts for a pool of 7, 7 minutes each = 147 minutes)?

It might be, but I figured I'd check. Also, I assume there's some variance, so even if there are N strips fully available and N pools, the amount of time it takes should grow somewhat with N. Does anybody have a handle on the difference in time between running 20 epee pools of 7 and 1 epee pool of 7, assuming there are 20 strips available for the former?

[K O'N]

(risking thread drift here)

Rather than investing energy in devising a complicated process for minimizing and balancing conflicts, it could well be a better idea--and more effective for the long run--to come up with an alternative schedule to replace SN, one that allows smaller, more focused championship tournaments without these multiple layers of conflicts.

Oh, wait, the TC already proposed something like that.

Mary

They did, and almost everyone who commented on it here thought it was a bad idea. Then I thought it might be Internet Pile On Syndrome, so I asked everyone I knew at a couple of big local events what they thought of breaking SN up in as neutral a way as possible, and it was 90% no, with about half of that 90% a fairly horrified no.

The overwhelming feeling I got was that schedule conflicts are a minor annoyance compared to not having a big SN.

It's certainly possible that SN has to be broken up, but so far it seems mostly to be the people who run it and ref at it who think so. So maybe you guys just have ways of doing things you like, and those ways don't scale well? For example, suppose we can come up with an algorithm and a pretty simple implementation, just using excel and macros, for example. Wouldn't that be good? And then if there are complaints about the schedule you can tell people to either criticize the algorithm or support breaking up SN or shut up, take their pick.

I realize that many of you have expertise in running these things and have spent a lot of time on them, so thank you. Honestly, I appreciate the time and effort people spend on these big events. From my perspective as a customer/member, an annual big festival of fencing helps fencing grow. From my perspective, SN isn't really a way to pick the best Div III epee fencer in the country. Between you and me, no one cares who the best Div III epee fencer in the country is. The point of the event is to have the event. It's fun, we like it.

K O'N

[dberke]

I like having non-point events first too -- like Div 1-A and Div 2. Teams are a whole different mind-set

This is YOUR problem and not the USFA's. A lot of people don't have problems transitioning between the two.

(I happen to love team events, but I would bet that they will be scheduled late -- and the individual event, which is on the very last day, will be early-ish if not at 7 A.M. Again, I can't imagine anybody who is taking the second day seriously fencing it -- unless the team has already been determined, which hasn't happened in the last couple of years, or unless that particular person is already a sure-team-member and has nothing to lose...much less staying to fence on a Tuesday of a work week.

There are so many assumptions in that last paragraph, none of which you have any basis for. First, there's no guarantee that team events will be scheduled later in the day. While that often happens at NACs, at SN team events can start at any time. In San Jose a couple years ago, my team event started at 8am and I was done by 9:30am (sadly,we lost our first match).

Next, no events start at 7am, the earliest close of registration is at 8am.

You say you don't expect anyone to take the individual event seriously... I suspect you're just flat wrong there. Anyone with a shot at making the team will take it seriously, and they will willingly give up a day or two of work. That's par for the course at SN - most people take off an entire week from work for SN and enjoy their time off.

Really, you need to give this a rest. The sooner you realize that YOUR personal schedule and personal preferences aren't the USFA's top priority, and that they have to balance the needs of ALL fencers, not just V50WE fencers, you'll be a much happier person.

Dan

[fencerwallet]

I think SNs must keep all the events. However, there is no reason whatsoever for 200 Y12 foil kids to be participating, etc. National Championships should be national championships, and further limiting eligibility is needed to make it what should be- an elite event, not just a bigger, gangly unmanageable NAC.

[Point online]

(risking thread drift here)

Rather than investing energy in devising a complicated process for minimizing and balancing conflicts, it could well be a better idea--and more effective for the long run--to come up with an alternative schedule to replace SN, one that allows smaller, more focused championship tournaments without these multiple layers of conflicts.

Oh, wait, the TC already proposed something like that.

Mary

That IS the problem with the USFA -- rather than investing energy into trying to see what the problems might be and if there is a way to fix them, they just throw the entire thing out. December NAC doesn't make money? Throw it out instead of seeing if there is a way to fix it (like holding it on the East Coast so that more people come because there are more fencers on the East Coast! OH! They did that and the problem was solved but they threw it out anyway. Never you mind.)

[Inquartata]

There is a big difference between that policy, and what the schedule allows. With the addition of team events to NACs, the same day individual events are frequently, NOT scheduled for 8am start. Combined with a registration deadline before the start times are posted, many fencers have registered for an individual and team event only to find them scheduled to start too close. This two in one day policy isn't reality.

I dunno, that looks like a lot of assuming that everything will be mucked up, before the times have even been determined. ( Admittedly, the way this past year has gone "they will muck everything up" may well be a fair
expectation. )

If individual event starts at 8 and team at 3, it could work. But I don't think that will be the case.

Again, if there are overlaps I will eat my words.

I have to say that this schedule does avoid one of the biggest problems of the past couple of years - putting Div III and DivIA of the same weapon on the same day.

Eh, why is that one of the biggest problems? What percentage of Div 1A is normally made up of D and under fencers?

Or were you speaking as a referee there?

Rather than investing energy in devising a complicated process for minimizing and balancing conflicts, it could well be a better idea--and more effective for the long run--to come up with an alternative schedule to replace SN, one that allows smaller, more focused championship tournaments without these multiple layers of conflicts.

Oh, wait, the TC already proposed something like that.

If history is any guide, that will happen presently, despite the unpopularity of the scheme. It will go something like "Input from all stakeholders was solicited and considered, and we have decided to go ahead with what we originally wanted to do."

[oso97]

December NAC doesn't make money? Throw it out instead of seeing if there is a way to fix it (like holding it on the East Coast so that more people come because there are more fencers on the East Coast! OH! They did that and the problem was solved but they threw it out anyway. Never you mind.)

The December NAC was not held on the east coast this year specifically to see if it could make money. Given that the event has lost money more years than it has made money, its entirely reasonable to rework the calendar to avoid that little problem.

Holding all of our events on the east coast is not a viable proposition, for a number of reasons.

However, if you disagree, why don't you gather all the fencers togetheryou can get and get them to only vote for candidates for USFA office who will support all events being held on the east coast. You might have a sizeable block. Who knows, you could shift the balance of power back to the "good old days!"

[Soberin]

This is YOUR problem and not the USFA's. A lot of people don't have problems transitioning between the two.



There are so many assumptions in that last paragraph, none of which you have any basis for. First, there's no guarantee that team events will be scheduled later in the day. While that often happens at NACs, at SN team events can start at any time. In San Jose a couple years ago, my team event started at 8am and I was done by 9:30am (sadly,we lost our first match).

Next, no events start at 7am, the earliest close of registration is at 8am.

You say you don't expect anyone to take the individual event seriously... I suspect you're just flat wrong there. Anyone with a shot at making the team will take it seriously, and they will willingly give up a day or two of work. That's par for the course at SN - most people take off an entire week from work for SN and enjoy their time off.

Really, you need to give this a rest. The sooner you realize that YOUR personal schedule and personal preferences aren't the USFA's top priority, and that they have to balance the needs of ALL fencers, not just V50WE fencers, you'll be a much happier person.

Dan

Totally agree.

[Soberin]

They did, and almost everyone who commented on it here thought it was a bad idea. Then I thought it might be Internet Pile On Syndrome, so I asked everyone I knew at a couple of big local events what they thought of breaking SN up in as neutral a way as possible, and it was 90% no, with about half of that 90% a fairly horrified no.

The overwhelming feeling I got was that schedule conflicts are a minor annoyance compared to not having a big SN.

It's certainly possible that SN has to be broken up, but so far it seems mostly to be the people who run it and ref at it who think so. So maybe you guys just have ways of doing things you like, and those ways don't scale well? For example, suppose we can come up with an algorithm and a pretty simple implementation, just using excel and macros, for example. Wouldn't that be good? And then if there are complaints about the schedule you can tell people to either criticize the algorithm or support breaking up SN or shut up, take their pick.

I realize that many of you have expertise in running these things and have spent a lot of time on them, so thank you. Honestly, I appreciate the time and effort people spend on these big events. From my perspective as a customer/member, an annual big festival of fencing helps fencing grow. From my perspective, SN isn't really a way to pick the best Div III epee fencer in the country. Between you and me, no one cares who the best Div III epee fencer in the country is. The point of the event is to have the event. It's fun, we like it.

K O'N

Totally agree also.

[eac]

No! This is the schedule thread! Talk about whether SN should exist elsewhere!

...resistance is futile...you will be drifted...

[hello?]

This is YOUR problem

Very probable. Anybody posting here can only speak for what they think based on their own preferences and those they have discussed with fencers in their immediate circle.

Next, no events start at 7am, the earliest close of registration is at 8am.

Bad nomenclature on my part. I count the 'time to be there' as the time the event 'starts.' (The time it actually 'starts,' as we all know, could be hours after that.)

You say you don't expect anyone to take the individual event seriously... I suspect you're just flat wrong there. Anyone with a shot at making the team will take it seriously, and they will willingly give up a day or two of work.

You totally misunderstood what I was saying. I actually agree 100% with you on this one. Everyone with a shot at making the team WILL be taking the individual event VERY seriously -- which is WHY I think (based on past and current conversations with team and potential team members) that they will not be as likely to fence the team event immediately preceding it (they have div 2 and div 1A or even, for a very few, div 1). Unless the WE team gets cast in stone by the March NAC (it has not for the past several years), that's what I think will happen. Most slots in the team are usually hotly contested until SN, but that could change. Who knows?

Really, you need to give this a rest.

Done. Why bother?

The sooner you realize that YOUR personal schedule and personal preferences aren't the USFA's top priority, and that they have to balance the needs of ALL fencers, not just V50WE fencers, you'll be a much happier person.

As to what IS the USFA's top priority, I guess we'll never know!!! Certainly its not the good of "ALL fencers," as was proven by the approval of the new tournament schedule, which seemed to piss of MOST fencers. Or some of the other crazy ideas they have come up with (Stay and Play, turning Vet ROCs into NACs, dissolution of divisions, etc.) that have, thankfully, been shouted down from the cesspool and other places.

[teacup]

B.14 Whenever possible Youth 10 events should be scheduled early in the day. [added 2007]

We do not accommodate for Pacific Time when the competition is held in Eastern Standard Time and visa versa. When you fly into the time zone the competition is held in, that is the time zone you will have to deal with.

Mark Stasinos
Vice-President
US Fencing Association

I realize that but my question, which was answered by mgriff, was why did the board write in that Y10 events had to be in the morning? If it was so that young fencers don't get tired, it isn't helping those fencers from the west coast fencing an event in the eastern time zone who will be tired from waking up at 3:00 am.

If that is indeed the reason, perhaps a better criteria would be to stipulate that Y10 events must be scheduled early if SN are on the west coast or if an event is scheduled with a late start, their next day event shouldn't be early.

(Personally, I don't believe either should be scheduling criteria.)

A5. There is a *lot* of overlap between age levels and divs. You could combine some vets with youth/cdt/jr on the same days, but the divs probably couldn't be combined into the same days with each other or with cdt/jr. We do days where some events use 35-40 strips for their pools and then shrink to a smaller (12-16) block for DEs, so that another event can then start on the freed-up pool strips, but I don't know that we could manage 6 or 8 events in the same weapon on the same day with all the crossover, even if the numbers would allow it.

My guess is that single-weapon would be just as tricky to schedule, what with all the overlap among events and the varied groups of referees that would be required for different days. Plus, I'd guess that there aren't enough saber referees to be able to handle saber-only days. (It's not unusual for saber events as they are to have to be flighted because there aren't enough saber referees.)

I was thinking of why can't men and women's same weapon events be scheduled on the same day not multiple events of the same sex and weapon. Opposite sex, same weapon events wouldn't have crossover.

I understand about the referee problem, but why disallow the option of having same weapon, different gender events on the same day?

I'm pretty sure B7 has a typo and is meant to say "B.7. Schedules should accommodate those single AGE GROUP fencers who wish to fence in multiple weapons for team selection competitions."

This would make more sense.

[dberke]

Very probable. Anybody posting here can only speak for what they think based on their own preferences and those they have discussed with fencers in their immediate circle.

Agreed. Sometimes it's easy to forget that one's opinion (even when it's shared by a handful of clubmates) doesn't necessarily reflect the opinion of all 5000 SN attendees, nor the 15000+ other USFA members.

Bad nomenclature on my part. I count the 'time to be there' as the time the event 'starts.' (The time it actually 'starts,' as we all know, could be hours after that.)

You don't have to be there at 7am either. As long as you're checked in by 8am you're fine. (I often marvel at all the people waiting in line at 7am - if I do show up early, I skip check-in and deal with equipment check first... then I walk up and check-in at 7:45am when there's no line whatsoever.)

You totally misunderstood what I was saying. I actually agree 100% with you on this one. Everyone with a shot at making the team WILL be taking the individual event VERY seriously -- which is WHY I think (based on past and current conversations with team and potential team members) that they will not be as likely to fence the team event immediately preceding it (they have div 2 and div 1A or even, for a very few, div 1). Unless the WE team gets cast in stone by the March NAC (it has not for the past several years), that's what I think will happen. Most slots in the team are usually hotly contested until SN, but that could change. Who knows?

If they choose to not fence the team event, that's their choice. We've heard from others who prefer to fence an event before their individual event - essentially, as a warm-up. So I think you're once again applying your personal preference here, when in fact the wider consensus may be the opposite.

Done. Why bother?

Hallelujah!

As to what IS the USFA's top priority, I guess we'll never know!!!

That's debatable - it all depends on how much you're willing to listen.

Certainly its not the good of "ALL fencers," as was proven by the approval of the new tournament schedule, which seemed to piss of MOST fencers.

Again, this is YOUR opinion. The vast majority of fencers at my club are ok or indifferent to the new schedule. Some even like it.

I'll admit, however, my sampling is just as statistically insignificant as yours.

Or some of the other crazy ideas they have come up with (Stay and Play, turning Vet ROCs into NACs, dissolution of divisions, etc.) that have, thankfully, been shouted down from the cesspool and other places.

I'll grant you these.

Dan

[mgriff]

I was thinking of why can't men and women's same weapon events be scheduled on the same day not multiple events of the same sex and weapon. Opposite sex, same weapon events wouldn't have crossover.

I understand about the referee problem, but why disallow the option of having same weapon, different gender events on the same day?

They use the same referee pool.

If D1MF and D1WF are at the same time, you split the number of higher-rated referees available for each. If you run them sequentially, one or the other gets the referees after they've already worked a challenging event. Which deserves the tired referees?

[mgriff]

The overwhelming feeling I got was that schedule conflicts are a minor annoyance compared to not having a big SN.

It's certainly possible that SN has to be broken up, but so far it seems mostly to be the people who run it and ref at it who think so.

I realize that many of you have expertise in running these things and have spent a lot of time on them, so thank you. Honestly, I appreciate the time and effort people spend on these big events. From my perspective as a customer/member, an annual big festival of fencing helps fencing grow. From my perspective, SN isn't really a way to pick the best Div III epee fencer in the country. Between you and me, no one cares who the best Div III epee fencer in the country is. The point of the event is to have the event. It's fun, we like it.

K O'N

I have *loved* SN all the years I've attended as a parent (since 1999) and worked as a bout committee member (since 2000). Only in 2000 (when I was officially a trainee) and in 2009 have I worked less than the whole tournament. But SN has been collapsing under its own weight for about the past five years--I even wrote a requiem for it in 2006.

The five days I worked in 2009 felt longer than many whole SNs in previous years. We've already started to lose good referees because of the brutal conditions we ask them to work under (the delayed pay is just icing on the cake). Many of us on BC are close to that breaking point, too. It's not just the long hours, though--it's the frustration. We like being good at what we do--running a tournament well is a hoot, and the conditions we face with the current numbers and schedules make running all of our national tournaments exceedingly difficult. There's no sense of satisfaction in making a difficult day work anymore--there's just a battered feeling of "oh, crap, I have to do this again in six hours."

Fencing is growing. That means fencing will change, whether we like it or not. Was f.net around when they added the youth events and the extra divs to create SN? I'd bet that there were a few people lamenting the dire effects that adding kids and recreational fencers would have on the quality of the national championships.

Whatever eventually replaces SN will be fun, too--it's in the nature of the sport. I expect in ten years to have hilarious conversations in bars after tournaments telling stories about the good old days when we used to do all the events in all categories at one giant tournament. People won't believe it.

Mary

[gatun.czone]

Create your own schedule and balance it so there are no conflicts.

I really was not criticizing anyone. I do realize how difficult it is to create this type of schedule. I was just mentioning that my daughter was disappointed that she will not be able to do all the events she wants even if she qualifies. Sorry if my comment was taken as being against whoever made the schedule.

[gatun.czone]

Since you brought up the financial issue, I assume you will not mind if I make a suggestion. I of course do not know what events your daughter is considering, nor do I know her fencing level. Nevertheless, you live in the Northeast, therefore you can drive, rather than fly. If your daughter is school-age, she should be out in plenty of time to make the trip to Atlanta. That will save lots on airfare. Secondly, there are long-term stay hotels--Residence Inns, Days Inn type stuff, where you can get a bargain rate for a week. These rooms have kitchens, so you can cook and save on meals. You will be farther from the venue, but you will save a ton by not paying for one of the THS hotels near the competition. You will have your car so it will be easy to drive to the event. You can even share costs with another family if your fencers are similar and need to be in Atlanta during the same time period. On the other hand, if your daughter is older, she can fly to Atlanta herself, and stay with a variety of folks from her club (sleeping on a fold out couch) and switch hotels as needed. Not the most elegant solution, but it's done all the time. Good luck!

Thank you for the suggestion on the long-terms stay hotels. I had not thought of that. We were planning on driving. I will check into the long stay places. Thanks again for the suggestion.

[gladius]

Create your own schedule and balance it so there are no conflicts. This is what you have to work with:

*102 events in 10 days
*The days that have the Membership Meeting, Congress and Board of Directors needs to end at a earlier hour.
*Also balance strip usage throughout the day to minimize down time and delays in start times.
*Balance the schedule with the needs of referees (Minimize conflicts between foil and sabre where your multi-leveled referees can be maximized and reduce the potential for double flighting.)
*Balance the combinations between Div.1, Div1A, Div.2 and 3, and Juniors
(if you spread these out with out teams, one per day and you consume 5 days in rotation.)
*balance the use of the schedule to protect the national team selection events ( Div.1. Veterans, Juniors and Cadets)

Give it a try.

Mark Stasinos
Vice-President
US Fencing Asssociation

This time I am very glad to give Mark and the USFA credit for a job well done under the circumstances. The complexities (partly listed here) are such that it is impossible not only to please everybody but not to displease everybody. Talking about optimization of this problem is almost just like trying to optimize Brownian motion.

Is the schedule good for me and my interests? Of course not, but this is the price we all must pay if you want to have the SN experience. Fix one problem for one group and you get several other problems for many other groups. So even without a detailed analysis of how and why these choices were made, I conclude that the solution--globally speaking--is as good as any and I am ready to concede that the NO and people working on this have learned ways to do this with a minimum of global discontent. So rather than bickering in this case I say sincerely, "Job well done!"

But SN has been collapsing under its own weight for about the past five years--I even wrote a requiem for it in 2006.


Fencing is growing. That means fencing will change, whether we like it or not. Was f.net around when they added the youth events and the extra divs to create SN? I'd bet that there were a few people lamenting the dire effects that adding kids and recreational fencers would have on the quality of the national championships.

Whatever eventually replaces SN will be fun, too--it's in the nature of the sport. I expect in ten years to have hilarious conversations in bars after tournaments telling stories about the good old days when we used to do all the events in all categories at one giant tournament. People won't believe it.

Mary

I agree 100% with these statements also. The problem I see though is how to make a drastic change from the model that if this were car racing wants to hold the Indi 500, Formula 1, NASCAR, drag racing, GoKarts, and soapbox car racing all in the Indianapolis oval and surrounding area over 10 days around the fourth of July because this is good fun for all car racing competitors and their families--and think of the watching public(!)--and provides good family entertainment.

The segmentation/separation of fencing competition will have to start sooner or later following even the model of other federations (God forbid!) or the FIE. The problem then becomes who is going to be the Alexander (the Great) who will cut this Gordian knot once and for all? [my assumption here is that this problem, like the Gordian knot, cannot be resolved piece by piece or by making even moderate changes year after year]

Not this administration, nor the next one, or the one after that, I am afraid. Why? Because we have term limitations for the office holders (this is good) so nobody can have enough time or clout to make such a drastic change and make it stick (and this is bad).

We need to have a person with competence and convictions not afraid to learn from others but also ready to push down our collective throats a "new" approach/vision. It won't be easy and the protestations will be louder than in the case of the infamous Stay & Play program. So we will continue muddling along, complaining here and there and now and then why one decision affects us more than others and keep everybody busy imagining a solution for an impossible problem.

We need to back off and start anew, but this is hard to do.

My conclusion about this SN schedule is that I don't like it because it is not convenient for me and will force or limit my choices, but I can't think of a better way--globally--to solve the problem we have.

Therefore, I repeat, thank you Mark and thank you USFA for having done something nearly impossible: an OK SN schedule all things considered.