Nationals Schedule Posted

[mdstasinos]

A.5. Each day must include a balance of right of way weapon and epee competitions.

Why couldn't we have all epee or all foil days?

The reason has to deal with the referees. I do not think there would be much an issue with Epee but when you get to right of way weapons then the cross over becomes difficult considering the number of events that must run at the same time. Most of our referee's we hire have two ratings. Usually a Foil and Epee combination and the shortage that must be balanced in the schedule is with the use of sabre in the day to day schedule. We do not have enough qualified Sabre referees. We could not do a sabre only day at the Nationals.

B.14 Whenever possible Youth 10 events should be scheduled early in the day. [added 2007]

Why? It's bad enough older fencers from the west coast have to get up at 3:00 am but Y10 fencers too?

We do not accommodate for Pacific Time when the competition is held in Eastern Standard Time and visa versa. When you fly into the time zone the competition is held in, that is the time zone you will have to deal with.

Mark Stasinos
Vice-President
US Fencing Association

[mdstasinos]

WHO is the right person to address regarding this issue at the USFA? (Before I start urging vets to write to 15 or so people...)

You can contact Tanya Brown at the National Office.

Mark Stasinos
Vice-President
US Fencing Association

[piste off]

I would recommend you look again at the schedule, then repost your retraction. It is not as you say. I went to the US Fencing web site and that it not what is on the schedule on that site. Day 2 is Div.1 ME and I think it was Day 5 ME Senior Team.

Mark Stasinos
Vice-President
US Fencing Association

It is actually day 4 for ME Senior Team... so they are two days apart (individual is on day 2).

R-

[mgriff]

A.5. Each day must include a balance of right of way weapon and epee competitions.

Why couldn't we have all epee or all foil days?


B.7. Schedules should accommodate those single weapon fencers who wish to fence in multiple weapons for team selection competitions.

Not sure if I understand this one, if they are single weapons fencers, aren't they single weapon fencers?

B.14 Whenever possible Youth 10 events should be scheduled early in the day. [added 2007]

Why? It's bad enough older fencers from the west coast have to get up at 3:00 am but Y10 fencers too? (I realize someone has to start early, just not sure why this is a specific criteria.)

Caveat: My comments here are only semi-educated guesses. I'm not speaking on behalf of the TC or the NO or in any other official capacity. I think the criteria are a combination of directives from the board and policies created by the TC, but the people who've historically made the schedules are not necessarily the people who created the criteria. (Which is kind of the story of my life as a tournament official: I don't get to make the rules or policies I'm required to enforce, and some of them--especially the configuration of SN itself, much as I've loved working it all these years--I'd be tickled to change if it were up to me.)

A5. There is a *lot* of overlap between age levels and divs. You could combine some vets with youth/cdt/jr on the same days, but the divs probably couldn't be combined into the same days with each other or with cdt/jr. We do days where some events use 35-40 strips for their pools and then shrink to a smaller (12-16) block for DEs, so that another event can then start on the freed-up pool strips, but I don't know that we could manage 6 or 8 events in the same weapon on the same day with all the crossover, even if the numbers would allow it.

My guess is that single-weapon would be just as tricky to schedule, what with all the overlap among events and the varied groups of referees that would be required for different days. Plus, I'd guess that there aren't enough saber referees to be able to handle saber-only days. (It's not unusual for saber events as they are to have to be flighted because there aren't enough saber referees.)

B7. I'm not sure about that one, either, but I'd guess it's for small clubs that don't have enough fencers in one weapon to field teams and want to draft clubmates from other weapons?

B14. I believe it was because parents complained about their kids having to stay up too late when youth events ran long, especially when they had another event starting early the next morning. (Same problem definitely affects everybody, though, including all the tournament officials who stay late and report early every day, no matter what time zone they're from.)

[piste off]

You know, this is sort of what computers are for. You can just tell them all the things you want, and it can chug for a while, and spit out an answer that satisfied everything you told it as close as it could, and it'll in general be vastly better than anything you could have come up with yourself.

It could be done with the right optimization software, something that does goal programming for example. There would be no "perfect" solution, so the objective function (i.e. what you are trying to optimize) would have to be very specific and a prioritization of trade-offs would have to be agreed on.

Definately doable... but it would take some work. But no doubt some would be unhappy with the outcome.

R-

[mdstasinos]

It is actually day 4 for ME Senior Team... so they are two days apart (individual is on day 2).

R-

Thanks for the correction.

Mark Stasinos
Vice-President
US Fencing Assosciation

[mgriff]

. . . There would be no "perfect" solution, so the objective function (i.e. what you are trying to optimize) would have to be very specific and a prioritization of trade-offs would have to be agreed on.

Definately doable... but it would take some work. But no doubt some would be unhappy with the outcome.

R-

That prioritization of trade-offs is the tricky part. When there are conflicts, as there always are, how should we prioritize among weapons or age groups? Should we go for a perfect schedule for all but, say, WS, or settle for a moderately crummy schedule for everybody? When we have to choose, should we protect Div I or Youth events more? Should we create a formal rotation for which groups lose out each year or just play by ear trying to keep it fairly balanced?

I'm not sure I'd want to be on the committee that decided the priorities.

But I guarantee that you're right about some being unhappy with the outcome.

Mary

[KD5MDK]

I'm pretty sure B7 has a typo and is meant to say
"B.7. Schedules should accommodate those single AGE GROUP fencers who wish to fence in multiple weapons for team selection competitions."

[Inquartata]

They could not have created more conflicts for team events if they had tried.
Men's Epee: Div3+Vets Team
Men's Sabre: Div 1A+U19 Team
Women's Epee: U19+Senior Team
Women's Foil: Div 1A+Senior Team
Women's Sabre: Div 1A+U19 Team and Div 2+Vets Team

OK, what am I missing? One is allowed to do 1 individual event and 1 team event on a given day, correct? So where are the conflicts?

Call me a glutton for punishment, but while it's nice to have only 1 event a day 2 doesn't necessarily make for a "conflict", IMO. Unless of course when the time schedule comes out the team and individual events overlap...

Well, it would have been nice if the much brandished carrot of Veteran team events had been held after the individual veteran events for WS and WE -- or, at the very least, not the day before. At least in epee, unless the four team slots are firmly decided in Dallas (has not happened, at least in recent years) I cannot imagine that anybody for whom the individual event matters will fence the vet teams (making it a much weaker event).

Again, maybe it's just me seeing things through my Obsessive About Fencing glass, but why would this be a problem? I've done events ( Div1A, Senior Team ) the day before my Vet event and haven't noticed a correlation between that and poor performance.

Heck, I'm even becoming resigned to gearing up for a qualifying-event NAC two weeks after Worlds*. Maybe they're wearing me down.

*It will be ever so much easier if I don't make the team this year, which looks increasingly likely.

[Peach]

I rather like having a non-point event before my point event, so as to get the stupid out of my system. I'm not a big fan of team events (either I'm the one who screws up, or else the person who convinced me to fence it has a really bad fencing day, and I'd rather just blame myself when I lose rather than think about the team), so I've remained indifferent to that scheduling problem.

[fdad]

OK, what am I missing? One is allowed to do 1 individual event and 1 team event on a given day, correct? So where are the conflicts?

There is a big difference between that policy, and what the schedule allows. With the addition of team events to NACs, the same day individual events are frequently, NOT scheduled for 8am start. Combined with a registration deadline before the start times are posted, many fencers have registered for an individual and team event only to find them scheduled to start too close. This two in one day policy isn't reality.

If individual event starts at 8 and team at 3, it could work. But I don't think that will be the case.

[hello?]

There is a big difference between that policy, and what the schedule allows. With the addition of team events to NACs, the same day individual events are frequently, NOT scheduled for 8am start. Combined with a registration deadline before the start times are posted, many fencers have registered for an individual and team event only to find them scheduled to start too close. This two in one day policy isn't reality.

If individual event starts at 8 and team at 3, it could work. But I don't think that will be the case.

For Dallas, WE Team (Div 2) and Veterans overlapped.

[hello?]

I rather like having a non-point event before my point event, so as to get the stupid out of my system. I'm not a big fan of team events (either I'm the one who screws up, or else the person who convinced me to fence it has a really bad fencing day, and I'd rather just blame myself when I lose rather than think about the team), so I've remained indifferent to that scheduling problem.

I like having non-point events first too -- like Div 1-A and Div 2. Teams are a whole different mind-set (I happen to love team events, but I would bet that they will be scheduled late -- and the individual event, which is on the very last day, will be early-ish if not at 7 A.M. Again, I can't imagine anybody who is taking the second day seriously fencing it -- unless the team has already been determined, which hasn't happened in the last couple of years, or unless that particular person is already a sure-team-member and has nothing to lose...much less staying to fence on a Tuesday of a work week.

[hello?]

It would be difficult. One of the criteria is to avoid having events in the same age category in different weapons on the same day--that is, you don't want two veteran women's team events on the same day because there's some crossover. If you move the team to a day that doesn't have other women's veteran events, you make conflicts with other events, like the divs, which veterans also like to fence.

There will be conflicts--it's just a matter of trying to spread them around so no one group gets hit more than any other.

Mary

Switching WE Vet Team with WE Vet Individual would have it 'conflict' with WF Vet Team (not that I consider this a conflict -- priority should be given to people whose main weapon that is...the ones who really fence all three indiscriminately and seriously are a handful....Shoot, all of us together are a handful!). I cannot imagine many people will seriously be fencing Vet WF team anyway. Why? They would have had to stay for two whole days after their Vet Individual event (Individual on Saturday; WF Team on Tuesday -- two or possibly three extra vacation days) when, pretty much, they will have a "Vet" team event the day after their Vet individual event, during "Senior Team." Who else will fence WF Senior Team? Div 1 is two days before, on a Thursday. Under-19 is a WEEK before, on the previous Sunday, July 4th. And Div 1-A WF is on the same day as Senior Team. So, pretty much, the Vet Women Foilists can call the "Senior" Team their event and forget about the three extra vacation days required to fence "Vet" team on the very last day...

[eac]

If you have 9 entries, do you have a pool of 4 and 5, or a pool of 9? If you have 8 entries, I assume you have a pool of 8?

[kapunga]

We do not accommodate for Pacific Time when the competition is held in Eastern Standard Time and visa versa. When you fly into the time zone the competition is held in, that is the time zone you will have to deal with.

Hi! Would it be a pain to shift East Coast times up a little? (Honest question, I have no idea.) I attended my first NAC ever in San Jose. My event was at 8am. I was able to stay with a friend in Berkeley, wake up at 5:30am, drive 20 minutes to pick up a friend who was reffing from her hotel in San Francisco, drive an hour to the venue, and get in a great warm up, all the while feeling fully refreshed and relaxed.

I imagine if I lived in Berkeley and attended a NAC on the East Coast, getting up in enough time to leave a decent warm up would be quite a challange, and I don't think I would feel on top of my game. Maybe if East Coast schedules were shifted up an hour or two it would help? Sure fencing might end a little late, but who isn't used to fencing until 9-10pm at their club normally?

[mdstasinos]

Hi! Would it be a pain to shift East Coast times up a little? (Honest question, I have no idea.) I attended my first NAC ever in San Jose. My event was at 8am. I was able to stay with a friend in Berkeley, wake up at 5:30am, drive 20 minutes to pick up a friend who was reffing from her hotel in San Francisco, drive an hour to the venue, and get in a great warm up, all the while feeling fully refreshed and relaxed.

I imagine if I lived in Berkeley and attended a NAC on the East Coast, getting up in enough time to leave a decent warm up would be quite a challenge, and I don't think I would feel on top of my game. Maybe if East Coast schedules were shifted up an hour or two it would help? Sure fencing might end a little late, but who isn't used to fencing until 9-10pm at their club normally?

With 10 to 12 events a day to be run, the close of registration and start times will be what they have to be. You consider it a rough long day for the competitor but we also have to consider the Referee's and staff who will not be a competitor for one to three days but will work the entire 10 days.
Whatever the time zone is, is what we deal with and I do not believe it would be a service to consider starting a couple hours later and finish a few hours later because of a time zone. It is not done in any other sports I have worked with domestically or internationally, nor in any of the business I have done.

Mark Stasinos
Vice-President
US Fencing Association

[oso97]

I have to say that this schedule does avoid one of the biggest problems of the past couple of years - putting Div III and DivIA of the same weapon on the same day. That in itself is a major improvement.

Having to fence on back to back days is NOT a valid complaint, period!

[Greybeard]

I am assuming there will be wheelchair clinic (in case your chair is sick) the day before we compete so I am plnning accordingly. So if there is not, I get a day to recover.

[K O'N]

That prioritization of trade-offs is the tricky part. When there are conflicts, as there always are, how should we prioritize among weapons or age groups? Should we go for a perfect schedule for all but, say, WS, or settle for a moderately crummy schedule for everybody? When we have to choose, should we protect Div I or Youth events more? Should we create a formal rotation for which groups lose out each year or just play by ear trying to keep it fairly balanced?

I'm not sure I'd want to be on the committee that decided the priorities.

But I guarantee that you're right about some being unhappy with the outcome.

Mary

This is a crux of the problem, and until there's some agreement about how one might do this any ideas of using optimization software and so on are premature.

So, for example, suppose we have three pairs of events:

WX and WY
VWX and VWY
MX and MY

The entry numbers are:

WX = 40
WY = 20
WX ^WY (the intersection) = 10 entries

VWX = 40
VWY = 20
VWX ^ VWY = 15

MX = 80
MY = 40 entries
MX ^ MY = 20

Suppose also there are two pairs of slots available, Monday and Wednesday (preferred) and Sunday and Friday (not preferred). Each of the pairs of slots could either accommodate MX and MY or both of the WX and VWX events.

What's the metric? If you go by single comparisons of events, that's MX and MY in the preferred slot, since MX and MY have a larger intersection than either of the other two. But if you count all the fencers regardless of event WX/WY and VWX/VWY get the preferred slot.

Question two, let's change the numbers a bit:

WX = 40
WY = 20
WX ^WY = 10 entries

VWX = 40
VWY = 20
VWX ^ VWY = 15

MX = 250
MY = 200 entries
MX ^ MY = 90

Now clearly we have to schedule around MX/MY, since that's a monster event, right? But do we now have to keep track of year to year injustices? If we screw WX/WY and VWX/VWY fencers for five years running, do they then get a preferred slot?

All this can be quantified, but first we have to have a sense of what actual justice is. eac is right that we can plug all this into a computer, it's an optimization problem. But we have to plug it all in, we really have to have an idea of what takes precedence over what to construct the algorithm.

K O'N