Co-ed NACs?

[jspierre]

Why not? Why not have mixed events? WE/ME becomes MWE. Foil become MF/WF becomes MWF?

[Titus]

isn't it true that men and women have different centers of balance in there body? it's possible that could give an unfair advantage to one gender over the other. although, i've seen men and women of equal ability fence many times and it seems okay to me. most likely any physical differences would cancel each other out. i wonder how it would affect televised ratings for things like the olympics?

[haggis]

jspierre

Is it just me or is this a subtle troll?

[Peach]

I think we should make NACs open to non-humans, myself. As long as they have a high enough classification.

[Swordsman]

Sounds fine to me.

[DHCJr]

The problem is the FIE. The NAC's (even though their importances has diminished because of the reliance of World Cups) are for determining the World Championship, Pan-Am and Olympic Teams). For those of you who have been reading the post on the entry of Women's Sabre in the Olympics, you will know that many of the European would like it to go back to the way it was before, the ladies in Foil and leave the rest to the Men. They didn't start until the U.S. did well in Epee and Sabre before they got serious about it. If the FIE had co-ed competitions, I bet you would see it at the NAC's

Locally, all competitions in our division are co-ed, except the qualifiers and the LBI. But even there, the ladies are allowed to fence against the men at LBI. This last weekend, the ladies received 2nd place in 2 out of the three events.

[epeemike81]

ultimately, the "problem" is the physical inequality of men and women. at the highest levels, differences in strength and speed are small enough that the limiting factors are intelligence, determination, and strategy. This is the way it SHOULD be. thus, to win at that level, you must be the better fencer, not the better jock. The problem with coed events is that women start off with very large differences in strength and speed relative to men. Thus, since they start off with inherent disadvantages, women are not likely to win even when they are the better fencers. If you made NACs coed, the points holders would very likely be nearly all male.

-m

[achilleus]

Originally posted by DHCJr
The problem is the FIE.

I don't see it as a problem.

Originally posted by DHCJr
Locally, all competitions in our division are co-ed, except the qualifiers and the LBI. But even there, the ladies are allowed to fence against the men at LBI. This last weekend, the ladies received 2nd place in 2 out of the three events.

On local level, Co-ed tournaments are great, on a higher level, not so great. I can't think of a single sport, at high levels, that has co-ed tournaments. What makes people think that men and women should compete against each other in fencing but not in any other sport?

Yes, Vezzali could kick my butt in foil, but does anyone out there actually think that she could beat Bissdorf?

Or how about putting Flessel-Colovic vs Milanoli or Kolobkov?

While the women mentioned are great fencers and can soundly beat many men out there, when faced with an opponent who is as skilled and smart as they are, but are also, taller, faster, and stronger it becomes rather rather ridiculous.

[achilleus]

Originally posted by epeemike81
ultimately, the "problem" is the physical inequality of men and women. at the highest levels, differences in strength and speed are small enough that the limiting factors are intelligence, determination, and strategy. This is the way it SHOULD be. thus, to win at that level, you must be the better fencer, not the better jock. The problem with coed events is that women start off with very large differences in strength and speed relative to men. Thus, since they start off with inherent disadvantages, women are not likely to win even when they are the better fencers. If you made NACs coed, the points holders would very likely be nearly all male.

-m

Actually, I think at the highest levels, the fencers know how to use thier strength, speed and size more effectively than at the lower levels, making it a huge factor.

At the lower levels, I see a much higher chance of injury due to someone attempting to use their strength without knowing how.

[DHCJr]

Originally posted by achilleus
I don't see it as a problem.




On local level, Co-ed tournaments are great, on a higher level, not so great. I can't think of a single sport, at high levels, that has co-ed tournaments. What makes people think that men and women should compete against each other in fencing but not in any other sport?

Yes, Vezzali could kick my butt in foil, but does anyone out there actually think that she could beat Bissdorf?

Or how about putting Flessel-Colovic vs Milanoli or Kolobkov?

While the women mentioned are great fencers and can soundly beat many men out there, when faced with an opponent who is as skilled and smart as they are, but are also, taller, faster, and stronger it becomes rather rather ridiculous.

I can name an Olympic Sport that is co-ed, Shooting. If fencing was strickly a brute force, I would say we couldn't consider going co-ed at the hightest level. I think the main reason Men have the advantage is time. There are many men who stay in the sport at a high level for a long time. We have lost a number of the ladies, because of motherhood. There are exceptions, for example Jan Romery, made it to 6 Olympics, but many drop out early. Much more than the men.

[a517dogg]

Even at a local level, mixed competitions are pretty silly... I've seen female As that are weaker than male C or Ds. Men that earn ratings at mixed tournements oftentimes have inflated ratings.

[achilleus]

Originally posted by DHCJr
I can name an Olympic Sport that is co-ed, Shooting.

Great example, I didn't know that.

Originally posted by DHCJr
If fencing was strickly a brute force, I would say we couldn't consider going co-ed at the hightest level. I think the main reason Men have the advantage is time. There are many men who stay in the sport at a high level for a long time. We have lost a number of the ladies, because of motherhood. There are exceptions, for example Jan Romery, made it to 6 Olympics, but many drop out early. Much more than the men.

Fencing isn't only brute force, but it plays a part in it. I fence with some women who were national team members. I've never made a national team, yet I routinely beat them, and sometimes they don't even come close. They all say the same thing about fencing me. Too strong, too tall, too fast. I'm defintely not smarter, or technically better, but the physical differences can be astounding when both the athletes work hard at physical fitness.

[Philistine]

Originally posted by DHCJr
I can name an Olympic Sport that is co-ed, Shooting.
{snip}

Not anymore, it's not. Wasn't in 2000.

Equestrian is though--probably the most "integrated" of the sports.

So is some yachting. Pairs skating, in a way. Also, IIRC, doubles for luge is open to men and women--mixed or same-sex.

--Philistine

[DHCJr]

Thank you. You are right and in 1996 they were seperate. They were together in 84. It seems I'm a little behind the times. Also thank you for the other sports.

[BugabooX]

But the *really* big problem with the concept is that women are weaker and fragile, right?

Right?!

[Capt. Slo-mo]

While ignoring the semi-serious trolls for men vs. women flames, I will say that some large tournaments, like the Nick Toth Open at the Air Force Academy (among many others) do an open men/women format, but also award places for the top women finishers.

It's not a total equalizer, but it gives women something to shoot for, and also a good ego boost for some of the women to see how many guys they can smoke along the way.

At some of the mixed events I've seen, women deal pretty well with losing to stronger men. It's not always the case when the guy loses to a female fencer.

[swordsen]

I personally would like to see it just because. I think it would be very interesting to see Vezzali fence Bissdorf.
I doubt it would ever happen but but saying other sports don't isn't a good enough reason not to.
Make a few events mixed and see how it goes.

[achilleus]

Originally posted by swordsen
I personally would like to see it just because. I think it would be very interesting to see Vezzali fence Bissdorf.
I doubt it would ever happen but but saying other sports don't isn't a good enough reason not to.
Make a few events mixed and see how it goes.

Actually, my comment on no other sports doing it was not expressed well. I've noticed that many fencers tend to believe that our sport is so different than other sports that we can ignore many of the lessons that these other sports have learned. An example of this is weight-lifting/cross-training, and women and men being able to compete against each other equally. My comment was really about those people who think that way, not about a reason not to do it.

As for them not competing, it would be interesting on an exhibition basis, just like Riggs vs. King, or even the never gonna happen Williams vs. McEnroe.

But as a regular tournament, why? In SF, the Bay Cup went to sex separated events because most of the women didn't want to get bruised by men who don't have much control.

Way back when, the US did have a single national chanmpionship, and it was separated because Helena Mayer, World Class German female Fencer, kept winning.

Yes a very skilled, top level female fencer can crush less skilled, less competitive men. I see it at the local and sectional level all the time. However once you start looking at the top level athletes, the differences in physical play become very apparent.

[Catlady]

Maybe there are some female "A"s who aren't as strong as male "C" or "D"s, but I know there are some who are just as good. I belong to the same division as Julie Smith Seals, and she beat up on the guys quite regularly and thoroughly in both foil and sabre-- she either is going to have a baby or has all ready had it, so she's not competing right now, but I'm sure if she decides to get back into the sport again she'll be just as big a threat. And she wasn't just beating the weaker men either. Currently we do have a sabre fencer from Ukraine--his dad is our coach-- who beat her handily quite a few times, but then he beats everyone handily, and place pretty high at the WC that was held in Florida or Tennessee--I can't remember right now which.

That and let's remember there are variations in the size of male fencers. The person who taught me to fence is about 5'8 or 5'9 which isn't particularly large for a man from what I understand and he's an A. When he's on his game he can beat people who are over six feet pretty easily. Also, there is Ken Chilton, who I understand is pretty short, but who is not one to be sneezed at either.

[a517dogg]

You can always find exceptions, but the general trend at least that i've noticed is that if a female C fences a male C, the male C will win 90% of the time.