Co-ed NACs?

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Peach
I have, however, run into guys who get specifically angry at losing to women. There was a guy who used to train at our club who kept telling me how bad women's sabre was. When I beat him at the club, he denied it or said the touches were questionable. He even argued for about ten minutes with the referee when I beat him in a DE in a divisional tournament. It used to burn him up something terrible when I earned a new classification, and he used to joke that he should dress up as a woman and enter a women's sabre tournament to get his classification. It got kind of wearing after a while, especially since I wasn't interested in arguing with him, or even in beating him--I couldn't figure out why my very existence used to upset him sometimes--and since I needed to bout him in order to improve my own fencing, sabre fencers being in short supply at that point in our club. He doesn't fence at the club any more.

I guess what bothered me was that he seemed to think that the women's events (as opposed to kids' events, or veteran events, or otherwise restricted events) somehow gypped him out of something.

well, I will certainly agree that this guy is a jerk and a male chauvinist. However, he is MUCH less typical of guys than some of the people on this board would have us believe. I have run into women who deliberately go for groin when they fence men. I am CERTAINLY not going to generalize from a few examplies to call it a major trend.

-m

[Peach]

Originally posted by epeemike81
well, I will certainly agree that this guy is a jerk and a male chauvinist. However, he is MUCH less typical of guys than some of the people on this board would have us believe. I have run into women who deliberately go for groin when they fence men. I am CERTAINLY not going to generalize from a few examplies to call it a major trend.

-m

Major trend? No. I didn't claim it was. I haven't noticed anyone claiming that brutality was a major trend either, or even that male fencers in general were typically chauvinist. Most of the people I fence are accepting and open-minded, or I wouldn't be in this sport. However, jerks do exist, and it is easier to notice it when you're the focus of the jerk's behavior.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Peach
Major trend? No. I didn't claim it was. I haven't noticed anyone claiming that brutality was a major trend either, or even that male fencers in general were typically chauvinist. Most of the people I fence are accepting and open-minded, or I wouldn't be in this sport. However, jerks do exist, and it is easier to notice it when you're the focus of the jerk's behavior.

Mo suggested that Co-Ed NACs were a bad idea because many men can't handle losing to women, and become brutal because of their bruised and fragile egos. This clearly implies that it is such a big trend as to merit consideration when discussing mixing tournaments. It isn't.

-m

[vigia]

Originally posted by Mo
Vigia,
This post makes my skin crawl. I am the mom of a 5 foot plus-a-little 125 lb saber fencer and if you EVER started beating the crap out of her because you were mad because she was beating you, which she probably could, you would have her mother, father and rather large brother on your *** not to mention any referee in the vicinity.

Mo -- I apologize for what was a bit of a troll. I don't whack the crap out of people because I am pissed. I do tend to hit hard because F=MA (Force = Mass * Accelleration) and I am I big guy. I do my level best not to hit hard, but sometimes it happens.

I used the extreme case to make my point -- that it would be sexist to treat a female fencer any differently than a male fencer. If intimidation and aggression do the job for either a male or female opponent, then so be it. I come from a long line of feminists, and before them suffragettes. What they wanted was equality. So don't beef to me (and threaten me with your husband, brothers, and sons!) if I treat your daughter with that respect. If what I am doing is within the bounds of the rules and what the referee will permit, then it is fair, and it is sporting. If your daughter wants to fence in competitions where there are 6'4' men who use aggression and intimidation, then she:

1. Has to get used to it.
2. Develop a strategy that counters it.

Again, I don't actually chase little girls down the strip. But the next guy might, and I am asserting that while you or others might find that unappealing, it is part of the game and an important learning experience.

If your daughter took Tea Kwon Do, she would be expected to spar. When you spar, occasionally you get a bloody nose. Lots of girls, and some boys, drop out when this happens. I have no problem with that choice. It is a sport for people who want to learn that they can get their noses bloodied and stay in the game. In fact, that is one of the best lessons of the entire sport -- learning to hold that pain and fear are things that can be walked through. You have no idea how empowering that is for the girls who stick it out. Think about it.

So I suggest that your daughter might have something to learn from a large male charging down the strip at her. She might learn that past local youth tournaments, this isn't something she is very interested in. Or she might learn that she can cope with it, and what is more, learn to turn her opponents agression in her favor. Either are acceptable choices.

[vigia]

Originally posted by Peach
I just saw Two Towers ("get the women and children to the caves!") and was reminded of when I first read the trilogy, back when there were never any female heroines, and I had to identify with the male protagonists if I wanted to get any enjoyment out of the story. It isn't all that long ago that women weren't allowed to do much of anything. Not really all that long ago. We're still figuring out how to deal with the idea.

When I read the Lord of the Rings to my children, my daughter picked up quickly that there weren't any heroines, so she instructed me to read Merry and Pippin as female hobbits. Her brothers protested mightily, but we did so and you know what? It worked perfectly.

[Peach]

Originally posted by vigia
When I read the Lord of the Rings to my children, my daughter picked up quickly that there weren't any heroines, so she instructed me to read Merry and Pippin as female hobbits. Her brothers protested mightily, but we did so and you know what? It worked perfectly.

Now THAT I love. I'll mention it to my daughter.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally posted by vigia
Mo -- I apologize for what was a bit of a troll. (snip) So don't beef to me (and threaten me with your husband, brothers, and sons!) if I treat your daughter with that respect. If what I am doing is within the bounds of the rules and what the referee will permit, then it is fair, and it is sporting.

Well, then, we can all take a deep breath perhaps. You're absolutely correct, Vigia, kids fencing adults and especially girls fencing adult men and women have to learn adapative tactics and develop really thick skins to prosper in this sport. I can't speak for Mo's children, but my daughter has had a hard time with vindictive hits--men and women, and sometime she just has to suck it up. It hurts, and yes, sometimes it throws her off her game. But she's learned distance and stop cuts and defensive secondary parries after she's scored a touch.

What's more difficult for her is empathizing with a guy in his mid 20's, who is losing to her 10-3 in the DEs and begins taking a step forward and delivering a hammer of thor (thank you edew) hit after she's already scored each touch. And, why the ref does nothing about it. But to her credit, she doesn't retaliate in kind.

I don't any of us--Nahouw, Mo, Peach, Edew--think vindictive brutality (especially men to women) is rampant, or even very frequent. But it does happen, and it is a concern that we should all think about in our own fencing.

One last thought, Vigia. Just because a referee allows it, doesn't necessarily make it fair or sporting.

[magma]

i can't relate to this very well, i don't feel bad losing to either group, i feel badly if i lose a lot all in one day, there has to be a sort of balance, the only thing that keeps me going is that i can win, either gender, and i don't go nuts with heavy hits, or trying for the throat, or try for the arm and they won't be able to fence you anymore for the day, or whatever, some guy did that to me, i see where it's coming from, they really have to win, so, i don't think of it as much fun, you don't get to play around too much with the swords, but that's a beginners attitude, it develops later on when you realize, that guy did me a favor, he blasted my arm, what am i going to do about it? well, i can't blast his arm back now, the bouts over, i guess i'll have to learn to: 1. attack stronger, 2. keep my distance, and HEY .....3. improve my footwork....that'll work...

fencing's great if you can keep your perspective

[vigia]

Originally posted by Capt. Slo-mo
It hurts, and yes, sometimes it throws her off her game. But she's learned distance and stop cuts and defensive secondary parries after she's scored a touch.

In college way back when, I was for a long time the dominant fencer in the school's club. The combination of my reach and my intensity (I was told it was like having a freight train coming down the strip at you) pretty much allowed me to win most of my bouts. I wasn't that good, I just had a hell of a beat attack and a very long, fast lunge. Finally, one of the men with by far the smallest build started to figure out that if he came in very low and up, there was almost nothing I could do about it. Some of the women saw what he was doing, and pretty soon they were all taking me apart. Size and agression soon were a liability, not an asset.

One last thought, Vigia. Just because a referee allows it, doesn't necessarily make it fair or sporting.

Agreed. And someone who brings down the Hammer of Thor intentionally after halt has been called deserves a card.

[Saber-Psycho]

Originally posted by epeemike81
however, to give them "chances" they wouldn't normally have, and thus cede touches to them is a black cardable offense. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. -m

So if you have a y-10 fencer in y-14 or some such, the y-10 is 4'11, the 14 fencer is 5'8. The bout score was 5-3. You know that the 14'er was favoring the y-10 fencer. So do you black card them?
Do you black card them for humanity?
I realize that you will probably say yes, but what's that say?
Any referee who's not a martinet, will never call that.

Originally posted by BugabooX
But the *really* big problem with the concept is that women are weaker and fragile, right?

Originally posted by three_hundred_fifty_five
The reason there is no co-ed NAC is because men are better and that would be unfair to the women.

Anyone have a needle? I can't see the exit sign behind their over-inflated heads.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Saber-Psycho
So if you have a y-10 fencer in y-14 or some such, the y-10 is 4'11, the 14 fencer is 5'8. The bout score was 5-3. You know that the 14'er was favoring the y-10 fencer. So do you black card them?
Do you black card them for humanity?
I realize that you will probably say yes, but what's that say?
Any referee who's not a martinet, will never call that.

how do i know that the y14 fencer was favoring?? I have seen people of about this size disadvantage win fair and square, so I certainly don't know just because of the size difference.... if I see the y-14 conserving energy and not going balls to the wall, but not specifically handing him touches, then no, I don't card. If it is incredibly obvious to me that he is handing over touches on a silver platter, yes, its a black card. lets be clear about one thing: most refs don't throw this card because it is VERY difficult to know for certain that somebody is throwing touches, not because of compassion. If it is compassion which prevents them from throwing that card, then they shouldn't be reffing. part of being impartial is not letting compassion influence your calls. I have only seen 2 situations where I would have thrown this card. it is VERY sketchy most of the time. However, the fact that you aren't likely to get caught doesn't make it any less wrong.

-m

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally posted by epeemike81
if I see the y-14 conserving energy and not going balls to the wall, but not specifically handing him touches, then no, I don't card. If it is incredibly obvious to me that he is handing over touches on a silver platter, yes, its a black card. (snip) I have only seen 2 situations where I would have thrown this card.
-m

out of curiosity, what is your referee rating/weapons/years in rating?

[mfp]

Hmmn -- this thread has grown to 4 pages (so far) . . .

Perhaps that illustrates what may be the best reason for holding some mixed gender fencing events at NACs, World Cups or even the Olympics -- the reason being that people are passionate about the idea, no matter what their opinion or reasons.

Passion and controversy are interesting. Combine that with the fact that few other sports at those levels include competition between sexes and you'd find interest in fencing would increase.

[oiuyt]

MFP- It's generated much discussion, but how much support? Yes we have a bunch of multi-threaded arguments on why NACs shouldn't be co-ed and a bunch of ancillary themes that have developed from that, but how many people here have said that they favor moving to co-ed events? I'm sure I've missed a couple, but I don't offhand remember anyone in this discussion saying that they were in favor of going to co-ed tournaments. All we've proven is that there's many strong feelings about gender issues, something which, at least to me, was never in doubt.

-B :)

[epeemike81]

pretty much everybody for at least the last 2 pages has agreed that they are a bad idea, though we have disagreed about reasons and other tangential subjects.....

-m

[Capt. Slo-mo]

I don't think anyone has come out in favor of a fully mixed NAC format.

But's how's this for an idea? An added NAC mixed event or two...like mixed teams: 2 women/two men?

[epeemike81]

men fencing men, women fencing women, or truly mixed?? the former has been suggested, and may even be used soon. The latter is a bad idea, imo, for all the same reasons that we were saying a mixed NAC woudl be bad.

-m