Question for NAC Head Armorers

[DHCJr]

Today, one of the masks brought to control was a Jianli FIE mask.

I knew right away the mask was a fake. I got the list off the FIE website and suggested they go back to the vendor they bought it from and let them know it is not FIE and see what they can do for them.

Now my first question. Whenever I was Head Armorer for a NAC, I always had a list of blades and masks, so the Armorers could verify what were legal. The mask was new and I only saw control marks for NAC B and C. Those who are Head Armorers, do you go over things like this?

The reason I am asking is I feel we are a service to the fencers. If there is a problem we should educate them. The other reason is many Armorers when they see a FIE mask, especially a new one, that has no dents or other flaws will not perform a punch test. This is not a FIE mask even though it says it is one, so it is possible I was the first one to do a punch test on it.

My second question involve control marks. Looking at these two control marks, I could have a control stamp prepared and have my mask already stamped before the next NAC.

Why do I ask this. I have met a number of coaches, who have been extremely upset when their masks have failed and marked at failed. They feel their fencers should be allowed to use them. Some of them I could imagine would not take questionable mask up to control and just mark them themselves. I know that is scary. When I was Head Armorer I would design and have made stamps for each tournament. This way there was no chance of someone doing this.

How are the stamps precured? Do the Head Armorer have any control?

[brtech]

Every head tech I know has access to the list and knows about it. Whether they know enough to check a mask that they have not seen before against the list, I cannot say. I do.

Regarding stamps. It is the head tech's responsibility to deal with stamps. The USFA will pay for a custom stamp to be made. However, if the head tech does not order stamps, they will have to use the changeable letter stamps in the kit.

At JOs, where I was head tech, I ordered stamps. They would have been quite nice I think. Unfortunately, they never arrived, despite having been mailed on February 5th. Weather issues no doubt. I did make up stamps that were not the usual 'NAC A' variety. It was "JO Memphis' or something close to that.

[DHCJr]

Every head tech I know has access to the list and knows about it. Whether they know enough to check a mask that they have not seen before against the list, I cannot say. I do.

Regarding stamps. It is the head tech's responsibility to deal with stamps. The USFA will pay for a custom stamp to be made. However, if the head tech does not order stamps, they will have to use the changeable letter stamps in the kit.

At JOs, where I was head tech, I ordered stamps. They would have been quite nice I think. Unfortunately, they never arrived, despite having been mailed on February 5th. Weather issues no doubt. I did make up stamps that were not the usual 'NAC A' variety. It was "JO Memphis' or something close to that.

Sorry, I was not clear. I would expect every Head Tech to have access to the list and to have downloaded it. That was not the question.

I would have a meeting before hand and go over everything, so that everyone was on the same page. I would also print out the list of masks and blades and tell the other Armorers to check the list if they are not sure of a manufacturer.

Is this usually done? Thank you for the answer on the second question.

I don't know what it is, but I am seeing and hearing about more fake labels lately. Example, the Lexan incident. This is not the first fake mask I have seen either. I have also seen fake blades and even a Rusty supposed FIE maraging blade, whose forge marks didn't match the manfacturer's forge, but did match a different forge.

[brtech]

I would have a meeting before hand and go over everything, so that everyone was on the same page. I would also print out the list of masks and blades and tell the other Armorers to check the list if they are not sure of a manufacturer.

Is this usually done?

no, not routinely.

[DHCJr]

We know that before the Ban that Uhlmann Visor mask with a Foil Bib was certified, but not without. Also, the mesh mask that was not certified for Epee and Sabre Jianli is certified if it has a Foil Bib.

Interesting!

[brtech]

There is one heck of a lot of Uhlmann FIE masks out there of all kinds. I suspect that it's more likely a listing error, but I'll go back to Dan and have him look into it.

With the Jianli, it's possible it's a listing error, but more likely they are either jumping the gun or outright fraudulent.

Since I don't have one, I can spread 2nd hand information, but seek the real truth of their status.

[DHCJr]

There is one heck of a lot of Uhlmann FIE masks out there of all kinds. I suspect that it's more likely a listing error, but I'll go back to Dan and have him look into it.

With the Jianli, it's possible it's a listing error, but more likely they are either jumping the gun or outright fraudulent.

Since I don't have one, I can spread 2nd hand information, but seek the real truth of their status.

I didn't say Uhlmann Foil Mask, I said Uhlmann Visor Foil Mask. I have already told Dan. Uhlman was added to the Foil Visor list in November 2008 and in September of 2009, it still was not on the regular list.

What is the difference between a Epee/Foil FIE mesh mask and a Foil with lamé FIE mesh mask?

All that is different is the adding of the lamé. How could it not be legal for Epee? What if you took off the lamé and used it for Epee. Would it be still a FIE legal mask. The FIE checks 3 things, Safety, size and the lamé covers the correct area for Foil. The lamé is not needed for Epee and you haven't changed the other two.

I believe you created a thread about covering the lamé with tape.

I can't see SEMI passing a non-FIE mask and making it FIE by just adding some lamé. This I am sure is a listing mistake.

As I said I already contacted Dan and I suggested that the company contact SEMI also.