Equipment Safety?

[LDR]

Hey everyone -

I'm new to the board, and a new fencer as well.

In shopping for gear, I'm faced with the not uncommon question of buying FIE or non-FIE conforming gear. I'm established in my career, so I'm not against spending the money. But I'm wondering if spending the extra cash for FIE equipment is worth it, or necessary.

I would like to eventually compete at the local and regional level, and I know that the USFA requires only 350N as the safety standard. But then I have to pause after reading stories about blades breaking and penetrating masks and jackets.

In the litigation happy U.S., why is the USFA safety standard so divergent with the FIE standard? Also, I'm curious on how you veteran fencers addressed this question.

Many thanks for you insight.


p.s. Does anyone have an opinion about PBT masks and equipment?

[Capt. Slo-mo]

LDR:

Others may have different anecdotal experiences, but here's how it was explained to us when we were fencing neophytes:

You only need FIE equipment when you compete in in a World Cup or FIE sanctioned event. For most of us, that's just the one or two tourneys a year here. If you go to the big events in Europe/abroad, you'll need FIE stuff there.

That said, a couple of observations. FIE equipment is more expensive initially. I think it tends to be stronger and more durable, but a good argument can be made (for knickers, white jackets and the like) that buying a couple of cheaper Blue Gauntlet type practice outfits every so often (and replacing them from time to time) is more cost efficient. Of course, we base this on growing kids/expanding waistlines.

Now, that being said, if you've got enough money to invest in good stuff, (and especially if you fence epee) I'd buy the high newton FIE equipment for the protection...masks especially.

One other thing to consider...don't skimp on the lame. (insert the epee guffaw here for those misguided souls who don't NEED lames) We fence sabre, and the biggest source of frustration early on was going for the middle/lower priced jackets and masks, and then replacing them more than once a year at the NACs when they failed.

Like most things in life, you do get what you pay for.

Oh, and by all means, for safety purposes, do get the FIE underarm protector, if you don't get anything else.

[sallearmourer]

Just remenber this if you buy FIE Equipement no matter from which company they all have to past the same requirement.

I have look at PBT equipement and it is as goood as anything else on the market.

Yes from a saftey stand point FIE is the way to go. As a Armourer of 30 years of expencienc my three oldest are all equip with FIE uniform.

Tim Loomis
Ye Olde Armourer

[The0ne]

I suggest not buying FIE stuff. If you are just starting, it is not really worth it in my opinion.
People basicallly never get seriously hurt by broken blades in fencing, and if you have an under-arm protector on, you will be probably fine

[neevel]

Basically, since FIE gear is significantly more expensive in the U.S. than in Europe, the thought is to keep competitions accessible by not requiring it.

Statistically, the incidence of serious blade injuries are pretty rare (the stories about Smirnov, etc. get a lot of attention precisely because they are uncommon and thus relatively spectacular). You're far, far more likely to be badly injured riding a bike with a proper helmet than you are to receive a serious broken-blade injury, regardless of what type of uniform and mask you have.

FIE gear is nonetheless better from a safety standpoint than low-end equipment, and my recommendation is that anyone who is fairly serious (i.e., has been fencing for at least a couple of years, is competing, and still liking it) should make the investment. You can usually find sale prices on FIE uniforms with some looking. In the case of FIE foil and epee blades, you'll end up saving money in the long run because the durability is so much greater than non-FIE blades. For beginners, going with the basic gear is fine-- you don't know how long you're going to stick with it (even if you're very enthusiastic at the start, you may not be a year or two from now). If you're still fencing when your beginners gear starts to wear out, then skip past the mid-range and go right to quality FIE gear.

PBT's gear is solid, and certainly worthy of consideration.

-Dave

[Jeric]

Make certain that you buy a set of Allen Keys so that you can tighten your sword to its grip. If you have a pistol grip.

Mine was starting to come loose so i had to tighten it. Also make sure that you stick your foil, eppe, sabre ...whatever you use into a bit of hose pipe to protect you blade.

If possible buy a new pair of trainers/sneakers and don't wear the ones you would wear every other day. I made that mistake and I couldn't get enough grip because I was wearing my outdioor trainers.

[Jeric]

I miss read the question.

Sorry.....!

[damianip]

Originally posted by The0ne
I suggest not buying FIE stuff. If you are just starting, it is not really worth it in my opinion.
People basicallly never get seriously hurt by broken blades in fencing, and if you have an under-arm protector on, you will be probably fine

Trolling or just uninformed?

Paolo

[Manjusri]

If you can afford it, get the FIE gear. Lasts longer, looks and feels better. Injuries from broken blades are rare, but they do happen.

[swordsen]

Actually I kind of agree with The One for the most part. as long as you stay away from the very bottom of the barrel stuff. (I recall a jacket purchased by a student that I could read his T-shirt through) you will be ok. I have seen many a broken blade bounce off TCA starter kit jackets.
Untill one gets very serious about the sport it probably isn't worth the investment. And definately not for a kid who is going to be outgrowing the stuff every 6 months.

[achilleus]

I also agree with theone. When I started fencing, I wasn't sure I was going to stick with it, I wasn't fencing that often, or that hard. It wasn't neccessary to have FIE equipment. I fenced for years using the standard stuff and had no problems. As do many people.

I often tell beginners don't bother with FIE, save your money for more lessons.

[Catlady]

I've got to go with most of the others on here. FIE is definitely nice to have. It will last longer and is a bit better--I bought an FIE blade thinking that it was non-FIE and the difference between it and my other blades is huge. However, you're not going to be at a huge disadvantage buying non-fie at first. Especially with blades, the sad fact is FIE or not you go through blades pretty fast, so if you decide you want FIE later you will have ample opportunity to trade up, shall we say.

I am frightened by the account of the person who said he could read the student's T-shirt through his jacket, but I haven't seen any non-FIE stuff that bad,--I have a non-FIE jacket from Fencing Post and it's held up spledidly-- though I had a bad experience with some really lousy body cords bought from Blue Gauntlet. I'd say most reputable dealers won't sell you something patently unsafe, otherwise they wouldn't be reputable dealers.

I would whole-heartedly recommend PBT, in all the dealings I've had with them, they have been wonderful. I e-mailed them about acquiring specialized equipment for wheelchair fencing, they responded very promptly to the request, and offered to check up on their latest prices and get back to me. Other vendors I like--and this is the general consensus of my club, which has over 20 years of cummulative experience at least-- are Fencing Post, the owners Saul and Vicky, are both easy to work with from all the accounts I've heard, and Blue Gauntlet. BG is not a favorite of mine due to my bad body cord experience, but they are very inexpensive--the problem is sometimes you get what you pay for I guess-- and I know others on here have had positive experiences with them. I will say I got a very nice fencing bag from them and I always order gloves from them. So, I'd say they're good for clothes and parts, but be wary of buying anything electric from them.

[counter riposte]

I agree with most of the group, if you are new to fencing you really have no need for FIE equipment yet. In terms of protection and durability, FIE is the way to go. But if you are just starting a new sport, spending a couple thousand dollars on jackets, lames, nickers and weapons may not be the way for you to go yet. Spending that much dough on equipment, and then finding out you might not like the sport is not exactly one of the best investment choices, right? Settle into the sport first with a starter kit, and if you still enjoy the sport in say two years, then start considering the FIE stuff. The starter kit can always be relegated to practice equipment.

To start with a starter kit for your weapon, try The fencing post at: www.thefencingpost.com, Triplette Competition Arms at www.triplette.com, or American Fencers Supply at www.amfence.com.

All of these dealers have good starter kits for all weapons, and reasonable prices for non-FIE equipment. I myself have competed in non-FIE equipment for the past several years, and have had no problems. However, I do agree with TheOne, purchase an FIE underarm protector with your starter kit.

[LDR]

Thank you, everyone, for your great comments. My initial gut reaction was also to go non-FIE for my initial equipment investmant, but I wanted to make sure by hearing what you veterans out there had to say.

While some of you cited the FIE gear for its comfort and greater safety, I hardly consider the 350N sanctioned by the USFA as sub-standard.

Thanks again.

- LDR

[three_hundred_fifty_five]

...In shopping for gear, I'm faced with the not uncommon question of buying FIE or non-FIE conforming gear. I'm established in my career, so I'm not against spending the money. But I'm wondering if spending the extra cash for FIE equipment is worth it, or necessary.
It's not necessary. But, it's not necessarily not worth it.

...In the litigation happy U.S., why is the USFA safety standard so divergent with the FIE standard? Also, I'm curious on how you veteran fencers addressed this question.
The FIE standard is for international high-level competition and they have these higher standards to protect fencers at that level. The USFA and pretty much every other fencing association don't require FIE 800N clothing and blades at their local, regional, and national events.

p.s. Does anyone have an opinion about PBT masks and equipment?
They are okay. However, every manufacturer has a slightly different design so other brands' stuff may fit or feel better.

[a517dogg]

I have PBT knickers and underarm protector, FIE, and I love them. Not only do they fit well and are very comfortable, but the feel slick and smooth.

FIE is most important for blades and masks. Also, underarm protectors: a couple years ago a guy at the school I go to now got a punctured lung because he wasn't wearing an underarm protector and his teammate's blade broke.

Most important in my view though is to get FIE mask and blades. Non FIE blades are worthless pieces of scrap metal.

[Methix]

The only equipment purchase comment I'd like to add is regarding not skimping on the lame. I am now an epeeist so I get to laugh at lames but when I fenced foil seriously (and I still fence it from time to time) I went through the non-metallic (chemically treated cloth) and cheesy copper lames like they were going out of style. Spend the extra few bucks and get stainless steel. That's just my opinion though, I know plenty of people that love their triplette ultra-lites, I just will never buy another. Infinity also makes their really nice and expensive lames that I've never heard anything bad about, but after my first experience with treated cloth I don't trust them...