Legalizing Mr. W!!!

[civiltech]

Hey there!

Just thought I would run a current CAN issue past everyone here. (Hope it's not to much of a taboo!)

The commitee for the legalization of non medical drugs here in Canada (made up of a bunch of Members of Parliament) has submitted a report to the House of Commons stating that Canada should decriminalize Marijuana. Sort of:

If you have in your possession, 30g or less, it would be considered a misdemeanor. You would recieve a fine. Like a speeding ticket. And no criminal record. Anything more than 30g, and you are trafficing, and in a deep load of trouble.

A Senate report from earlier this year stated that Marijuana is less harmful than Alcohol, and that it would be in Canada's best interest to decriminalize it.

As British Columbia's biggest cash crop is Marijuana; which basically is exported to California, what do some of the Americans have to say? (This illegal, and non taxed trade has been a big concern to both Canada and the US to date!) By legalizing it, the smuggling accross the border to the US is sure to get worse!

It is very realistic that legislation could be passed in the next five years or so decriminalizing this drug.

Just another thought stewing around in my mind! This is big news this week in Canada.

Regards,

[lochinvar]

Originally posted by civiltech
<snip>
As British Columbia's biggest cash crop is Marijuana...(This...non taxed trade...By legalizing it, the smuggling accross the border to the US is sure to get worse!
<snip>

If they legalized it on both sides of the border, it wouldn't be smuggling. It would be commerce--and a very profitable commerce for both the participants and the governments. We could even make it part of the NAFTA. We could trade one type of "smoking" for another and talk current tobacco farmers into switching to hemp, which has never been linked to heart disease, emphysema, cancer, or any other physical ailments despite the many, many studies that have been done.

The benefits of legalization are legion, and obvious on their face. The benefits of continued prohibition are difficult to see.

The "war on drugs"--at least that part of it that deals with Marijuana--has been another case of no one wanting to be the first to say that the Emperor has no clothes. Despite the billions of dollars, millions of man-hours, and centuries of prison time poured into this since the 1920's, the sale and use of "weed" hasn't been curtailed to any appreciable degree.

We regulary as a society point to Prohibition as a failed experiment, yet we refuse to acknowledge or accept its lesson.

So, what do I as a US citizen think of this development? I think it is a step in the right direction. I hope it is followed by many more such rational and logical steps until we finally emerge from the darkness of dogmatism into the daylight of reason.

[Swordsman]

Less harmful than alcohol? They must have been smoking it themselves at the time.

I can agree with what you're saying about the ineffectiveness of marijuana prohibition - but knowing how awful the stuff is, I can't quite stomach legalizing it just because we're not good at prohibiting it. So basically, you have a good point, but I'm not really fond of the alternative.

[darius]

You know any violent drunks?
How about violent stoners?

Marijuana is a health hazard to the user, but so are cigarettes (legal), alcohol (legal), and nice juicy steaks (legal).

Public intoxication and DUI laws can apply--what's wrong with people doing whatever they want in their own house?

darius

[Sildar]

Originally posted by civiltech

As British Columbia's biggest cash crop is Marijuana; which basically is exported to California, what do some of the Americans have to say? (This illegal, and non taxed trade has been a big concern to both Canada and the US to date!) By legalizing it, the smuggling accross the border to the US is sure to get worse!

As a Californian, and a resident of Humboldt county, I am deeply offended by the implication that Californians would import Canadian pot. Humboldt country grows the finest wacky tobaccy in the continental US, and in sufficient quantities to supply the northern half of our state. We have no need to import your inferior Canadian product!

However, some of the county's northern customers might be more inclined to buy the somewhat more legal Canadian pot, second-rate stuff that it is, so it could hurt our local economy. As such this is cause for concern; rest assured, we will increase the pressure to "officially" legalize Herb here as soon as possible, and let a truly free market decide who grows the greenest buds around.

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by darius
You know any violent drunks?
How about violent stoners?

Marijuana is a health hazard to the user, but so are cigarettes (legal), alcohol (legal), and nice juicy steaks (legal).

Public intoxication and DUI laws can apply--what's wrong with people doing whatever they want in their own house?

darius

Are you kidding me? I'm a high school student. OF COURSE I know plenty of violent drunks, and stoners.

But it's beside the point. Like I said, I can see Lochinvar's point - that prohibition probably isn't working, and it's money down the tubes. Besides that, if we legalized marijuana, the government could also tax the crap out of it (like they should with tobacco), as well as regulate it. It's just a little...unpleasant, I guess, as I am so against any kind of drug use (tobacco, alcohol, or other).

[Sildar]

I think darius was referring to the fact that people who are stoned tend to do very little, as opposed to people who are drunk who do all kinds of destructive things. As I pointed out above (and for the irony impaired, no I wasn't serious) I live in a college town full of stoners. I have the pleasure of watching people numb their brains into idiocy every weekend. I frequently see people picking fights, yelling and screaming, lighting things on fire, and getting in car crashes immediately following the use of alchohol. The people smoking pot, on the other hand (and yes they frequently get stoned publicly here) do nothing. At most, they may have a half-hearted political or philosophical argument. After the first bowl they usually aren't motivated enough to light anything on fire but the next bowl. If they have the energy or desire to get in a car to drive anywhere, they usually drive well below the speed limit, and aren't exactly performing wild and crazy feats of daredevilism on the road. Mostly, they sit around sharing thoughts which only another stoned person would consider profound.

Sure, lots of stoners waste their lives; so do lots of alchohlics, or for that matter people who watch TV all day. The difference being that stoners are less likely to harm other people as they do it.

[Inquartata]

How would decriminalizing possession of personal-use quantities increase the incentives for smuggling it into the US? Are potheads going to be pouring over the border with 30g at a time, then selling it here? As long as trafficking is not addressed by the law I can't see that it makes any difference import-wise.

I am in favor of legalization...and taxation. Prohibition of alcohol was an abyssmal failure, and so is the "War on Drugs". However, it's going to be a real hard sell, considering how many government and private organizations make boatloads of money and cement their power from "fighting" the drug trade.

[Titus]

In response to Sildar, BC has the finest product in North America and possibly the world. America may do many things better, but west coast Canada has this one in the bag. I've heard... :)

[civiltech]

Originally posted by Sildar
As a Californian, and a resident of Humboldt county, I am deeply offended by the implication that Californians would import Canadian pot. Humboldt country grows the finest wacky tobaccy in the continental US, and in sufficient quantities to supply the northern half of our state. We have no need to import your inferior Canadian product!

However, some of the county's northern customers might be more inclined to buy the somewhat more legal Canadian pot, second-rate stuff that it is, so it could hurt our local economy. As such this is cause for concern; rest assured, we will increase the pressure to "officially" legalize Herb here as soon as possible, and let a truly free market decide who grows the greenest buds around.

You are a very very funny man!!!!

ps- it's not legal yet!


Regards,

[Tim P. Miceli]

I belive the that if marijuana was legalized that the not only would it help the Canadian economy with all the uses for it; i.e. paper, rope, smoking, but Toronto might become the new hot spot for alot of people's spring break. In fact You would also probably get a lot of highschoolers going on about how their life long dream is to move to Canada so they can smoke their weed without "The Man" trying to spoil their fun.

Besides Canada is alot closer and more easily accesable of a place than denmark(I belive pot is leagal there as well) for alot of people, seeing as how you don't need to spend alot of money on a plane ticket.

any way just my 2 cents

[civiltech]

Originally posted by Tim P. Miceli
I belive the that if marijuana was legalized that the not only would it help the Canadian economy with all the uses for it; i.e. paper, rope, smoking, but Toronto might become the new hot spot for alot of people's spring break. In fact You would also probably get a lot of highschoolers going on about how their life long dream is to move to Canada so they can smoke their weed without "The Man" trying to spoil their fun.

Besides Canada is alot closer and more easily accesable of a place than denmark(I belive pot is leagal there as well) for alot of people, seeing as how you don't need to spend alot of money on a plane ticket.

any way just my 2 cents

In Amsterdam they have a zoned area where you can use drugs. I can't speak first hand, but from what I've been told from friends travelling through Europe, it has hurt the tourism. It's not pot only. It's hard/soft drugs in this zone (whether sanctioned or not.) And when people have injected/smoked/whatever into their system, they then leave the zone. And then you have problems.

As for decriminalizing marijuana for personal use in Canada: A lot of interesting comments! I thought someone would actually be against the idea!

Go figure!

[Zelda]

Speaking as someone who has been to Amsterdam twice, once with a tour group and once with my parents the use of drugs is not that obvious in the major tourist areas. Admitting if you go into the side streets there are cafe's etc which you can obtain and smoke pot. (I dont know about harder drugs). However from what I could see it does not make that much difference to community. I am personally very anti drugs, but am off the opinion if you legalise something you must have the infastructure in place to be able to handle the consequences.

[Sildar]

Originally posted by Zelda
I am personally very anti drugs, but am off the opinion if you legalise something you must have the infastructure in place to be able to handle the consequences.

Fair enough. From a purely economic standpoint though, I honestly think taking pot down a notch or two in terms of the seriousness of possession of small quantities would ultimately save money, at least in the US and Canada. It makes a lot more sense for the state to collect $20 from someone carrying a small amount of marijuana than to spend tens of thousands arresting them, prosecuting them, and paying for them to spend several years in prison, all of which does very little toward making the country a better place to live. In other words, decriminalizing pot would require less infrastructure than fighting casual users as if they were all murderers does.

[Tim P. Miceli]

There is the ever present question of why pot is illegal in the first place?

I have heard things such as back in the hay day of america marijuana was banned because as a competitor to paper it was threatening the income of some people who had friends in high places (no pun intended) So via. some under handed politics it was made illigal.

And then of course there are the commercials that we see on TV. Apparently from what I heard (please feel free to elaborate on this if you know somthing) back in the '50s they Had some anti-pot comercials that put forth the idea that if you smoked marijuana you would go crazy and do things like becoming really violent or aggressive. The kind of side affects that are now attributed to drugs like PCP and the like.

Not to mention the comercial that was recently being aired around the time the legalization of pot for Nevada was being discussed. The comercial showed 2 kids in their dads office and one of them found a gun, and then shot his friend because he thought it wasn't loaded.

So Question: how much of your smarts go out the window when you smoke pot?

Another thing to think about is that by legalizing marijuana it would allow those who choose to smoke it a chance to get it without having to worry about wheither or not it has been tampered with, or laced with things like speed or worse.

Such cases are generally the cause of the stories you hear where someone smoked marijuana and then started to see things, or act really strange. Marijuana is not a halucinajenic It can not make you see things i.e. halucinate.

So what are your thoughts?

[HilandDoug]

I can't believe I'm reading this on the Fencing.net forum!

I believe you are referring to the movie "Reefer Madness", which came out in 1938. It was also known as "Tell Your Children." It was, in retrospect, a hilarious propaganda film. At the time, it was taken seriously, but if you watch it now, it's comical. Cheech and Chong really hit the nail on the head with their movies, because they wrote from personal experience. The 1938 movie was written by someone with no knowledge of the effects, and for purely propaganda reasons. They weren't interested in the truth, but were interested in propagating a specific viewpoint.

Before it was made illegal, a lot of Hollywood actors smoked openly. After criminalization, stars such as Robert Mitchum were occasionally arrested for smoking, and advocated it's decriminalization.

Personally, I feel anything can be abused, and the commercial where one kid shoots his buddy by accident could just as easily be about underage drinking as it is about dope. Heck, those kids could be completely sober, and if they're not familiar with firearms, the same result could occur. To beat a dead horse, the commercial could also be advocating responsible gun ownership. Picture the boys playing video games with no mind altering substances present, same dialogue, same outcome, but the announcer says, "Be a responsible gun owner. Do not store a loaded forearm, and always use a trigger lock. Your own child could be in danger."

Last week's South Park kind of addressed the issue of those type of ads. By lying about the effects, parents were losing credibility with their children. Of course, South Park took it to the extreme with hilarious (IMHO) consequences.

[D'Artagnan1673]

I've listened to the legalization of pot arguments quite a bit. I am still not 100% for or against legalization.

I can see that the government could tax the item, and less money would be wasted putting these people in prison. However, I am still against pot from a moral standpoint. I think that I have a double standard however. I occasionally drink alcohol, a glass or two of wine. I also love America's most popular drug, caffeine. I am an avid coffe and cappucino drinker. In truth, if the decaff tasted as good, I wouldn't have a problem switching to decaff, but I don't like the taste as much.

[oiuyt]

just as easily be about underage drinking as it is about dope.

You're right!!! I think this is a really important issue!!!! We should all be agitating for laws against underage drinking!!!!! We should... what? Oh. Never mind.

-B :)

[Tim P. Miceli]

I think that what it comes down to is responsibility and use in moderation.

There are are plenty of substances that if used without responsibility can wreck someones life.

Alcohol and drugs come to mind.

If the responsible use of a substance in moderation does not have any bad effects then why can't it be legal?

Of course there will be restrictions like there are on alcohol and cigaretts but that almost goes without saying.

Does anybody know the current [good] arguments that are being used against the legalization on marijuana that is somthing that I would be interested in as I am not totaly decided on the issue either.

[earlie]

Tlking of marijuana, there was a distinct whiff/smell of it at one of our tournaments in one particular pool. The president looked a bit stoned, but it wasn't him - it was one of the competitors, whose jacket for some reason smelled. His opponent stuck a glove inside his uniform deep down where the sun doesn't shine. Then he pulled it out and wore it. The smell put the heeby-jeebies up the other fencer, and we had to call the whole thing off. Seriously, tho, there are advanced fencers who deliberately like break wind at close quarters for tactical reasons, particularly in the good ole USA, and that can be unorthodox. But who knows