Do you think...

[Superscribe]

A pistol grip is designed to fit your hand and offer the greatest deal of strength over the blade. This may cause larger actions, but only the same way that a faster car may make you drive faster. You can still drive slow in a Ferrari and still make small actions with a pistol grip. Additionally when you need to you can exert more force through the grip, while still having the blade point in the right direction.

What an interest analysis and analogy. Let me take this a bit further. An generally encouraged way of learning how to race a motorcycle or a car around a track is to start off on a low powered vehicle. Most people who are serious (read: make a living) about going fast around a track do this.

The racers on these low powered vehicles will eventually be racing on more high powered vehicles. Why would they bother to learn how to go fast on a low powered vehicle? The lines around a track are different. How you enter and exit a turn is different. The weighting is way different. The time you're allowed to spend on at track is way more expensive than the time you have in front of a fencing dummy. Why is this the case?

Because even with the threat of DEATH, people can't restrain themselves. If they have that extra leverage, they'll use it. If they have the extra HP, they'll use it. Any father with a child who wants a car knows this.

Using a french grip to compete is pretty silly. Using it for practice to develop good habits a pretty good idea. I know people who clamp down with their ring and pinkie finger when they use a pistol grip. Infact, that's how they control the point. Their point control is just terrible. I know one of these people who used a french grip for a little while. He focused more on controlling the point with the correct fingers, and his point control is much better now.

[Fencergrl]

Using a french grip to compete is pretty silly.

Not if that is the grip you normally use. Lots of good fencers use a French grip. More use an orthopaedic grip. Doesn't make either choice wrong. However... I agree that using a French grip for practise & a pistol grip in competition may do more harm than good.

[dridge]

Using a french grip to compete is pretty silly. . . .

Pardon?

At foil, perhaps.

[Bonehead]

Using a french grip to compete is pretty silly. Using it for practice to develop good habits a pretty good idea.

I agree to an extent. I would say it makes more sense to say that in some ways LEARNING on a French grip isn't so bad (since it exacerbates bad habits), but training on one might be problematic.

Since the French grip requires more finger strength to maintain good form (somewhat), then there probably is a athletic training benefit from using one (which is why I would imagine kurt getz did his training with it, but you'd have to ask him). The problem is that it's so different from using the pistol grip. When held correctly the tips of each type of grip point to different places.

When you're just learning this isn't such a bad thing, because honestly, most people's point control when learning is so wild that a few inches to the left isn't going to make a huge difference. When you're already good this makes no sense.

To continue the (apparently very useful) analogy, it would be like someone training for formula 1 racing by taking a go cart around the track. Might have been useful to someone who can't drive well yet, but once you can handle the car, you should practice in the car.

To argue for the finger strength side, I would say (and have done) take a old pistol grip, and break off the 'pommel', the part of the grip that you're pinky and ring finger holds, and the curved pointed bit that goes between your thumb and index finger. Fence with that for a few bouts and finger strength will come (also there is a real good chance that your hand will cramp up in intense pain and you won't be able to open your thumb).

The point is except as a convenience for beginners, stay away from the French grip.

[Superscribe]

Not if that is the grip you normally use. Lots of good fencers use a French grip. More use an orthopaedic grip. Doesn't make either choice wrong. However... I agree that using a French grip for practise & a pistol grip in competition may do more harm than good.

Sorry, i assume foil, because i don't officially recognize epee.

[samh]

For the most part I agree with Bonehead's points but I think that at certain times and for certain athletes using a french grip for a stretch of time can be a valuable training tool.

Two very good Canadians, Max and Mykael, had stretches when they fenced french grip and when they came back to pistol afterwards they were much better. In epee this makes sense since it forces you to work on aspects of your fencing that could be ignored if you were to stick with pistol. Both of those guys have always had very strong parries and blade actions but now their absence du fer games are stronger and they have a more complete skill-set.

[tchwojko]

Two very good Canadians, Max and Mykael, had stretches when they fenced french grip and when they came back to pistol afterwards they were much better.

Were they posting when they did this experiment?

[Fencergrl]

Sorry, i assume foil, because i don't officially recognize epee.

That's okay... I've always thought the reason foilists don't consider a hit to the head to be lethal, was they don't really use that part of the body. It's unnecessary body part much like an appendix is for the rest of us.

[mrbiggs]

Has anyone ever used this type of training, seen it used, or talked to someone who has?



If so, I'd be interested in your input on it from that perspective, especially on the specifics of how and why to use it.

[samh]

Were they posting when they did this experiment?

Yes they were. The only time I've seen french grippers exclusively not posting for epee is 1) as a beginner and 2) as an exercise to increase hand/finger strength

[telkanuru]

Yes they were. The only time I've seen french grippers exclusively not posting for epee is 1) as a beginner and 2) as an exercise to increase hand/finger strength

Wait, *not* posting is an exercise to increase hand strength?

[Superscribe]

That's okay... I've always thought the reason foilists don't consider a hit to the head to be lethal, was they don't really use that part of the body. It's unnecessary body part much like an appendix is for the rest of us.

most people consider a blow to the head to be potentially lethal. That's why we wear head protection when we play our sport of fencing. I don't know anything about the sport of "defending against lethal headblows" you barbaric north woman.

[tchwojko]

French grip sans posting in epee seems to be one of these categories:

1) beginner
2) desperation due to lack of working equipment
3) some sort of strange Amish-like idealism
4) masochists

[Bonehead]

Actually, it occurs to me there is one circumstance where French grip has some advantage over pistol grip (other than posting). Heavy angulation. Michael Questier has a funny style with a French grip that gives him some success in England.

The French grip allows to make highly angulated hits to the flank that would be awkward to make with a pistol grip. When he does it it's kind of reminiscent of the diagrams in Lukovich book, Electric Foil Fencing.

Of course this is hardly "better point control" or even the style of fencing that is often implied by the French grip advocates. Also, I've only ever seen this style work for one person, ever.

Also I have seen some success with posting in foil (one guy), but other than that I've probably seen over 100 people who don't fence very well and fall into the following categories:

1) beginner
2) desperation due to lack of working equipment
3) some sort of strange Amish-like idealism
4) masochists

[samh]

Wait, *not* posting is an exercise to increase hand strength?

I should have explained what I meant more clearly. I knew a guy who stopped pommeling for a bit because he was doing some actions incorrectly due to a lack of hand/finger strength. He kept fencing with the french grip but he stopped posting until his strength was up to what he thought it ought to be - he even did a couple world cups holding his french grip at the hilt (but I don't think he did very well at them).

He was a very good junior beforehand and is an even better senior now so it worked for him in the end.