Do you think...

[lauragoodin]

My reasons for wanting to stick with French grip are aesthetic and emotional, which I know carry very little weight when one's priority is competition. But that's not my priority (flame me in private if you must). My priority is fun, which is as valid as any of the other reasons people fence; fun, and lots of steampunky goodness.

Moreover, if the issue is point control, how much better to get good at point control with the French grip, when I know the control is due to my skill, and not to the grip itself? (By the same token, I shoot barebow at the archery range. Right now my scores so fully suck, particularly compared to those with super-duper sights, and stabilizers, and wrist straps, and this, that, and the other hanging off their bows until they look like something out of Star Trek. But if I can get good shooting barebow, I will really feel like I've accomplished something!)

[MyrddinsPrecint]

My reasons for wanting to stick with French grip are aesthetic and emotional, which I know carry very little weight when one's priority is competition. But that's not my priority (flame me in private if you must). My priority is fun, which is as valid as any of the other reasons people fence; fun, and lots of steampunky goodness.

Then you are making a fully rational decision. Not a decision many others on this board would make, I'll warn you, but as long as you're fully aware of the trade offs you're making for your aesthetic and emotional gains, it's your decision to make.

[telkanuru]

Moreover, if the issue is point control, how much better to get good at point control with the French grip, when I know the control is due to my skill, and not to the grip itself?

Yeah, that doesn't even make sense. Like, it's a coherent sentence, but it doesn't actually mean anything.

You can make whatever decision you want which lines up with whatever notions you have, but don't take them to a sport fencing board and then whine when you're told to sit down and shut up.

[lauragoodin]

Did I not ask for flames to be private?

No-one has told anyone to sit down OR to shut up. Manners are a very nice thing. You should try them.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Did I not ask for flames to be private?

No-one has told anyone to sit down OR to shut up. Manners are a very nice thing. You should try them.

You can ask. It's a public forum, it's unlikely to happen. Manners are very nice, but those who choose not to use them do so because it gets them attention they like. You don't think he's enjoying that you object?

That said, he has a point. If you follow your logic.... The french grip is still a grip, and your point control may be due to that grip. I'm afraid you can't use that either. You'll have to just use the bare steel. I don't think you want to do that, as it isn't very aesthetic, and I imagine the overwhelming emotion you would feel would be "frustration", which means there's probably something off about your original logic.

[erooMynohtnA]

My reasons for wanting to stick with French grip are aesthetic and emotional, which I know carry very little weight when one's priority is competition. But that's not my priority (flame me in private if you must). My priority is fun, which is as valid as any of the other reasons people fence; fun, and lots of steampunky goodness.

Moreover, if the issue is point control, how much better to get good at point control with the French grip, when I know the control is due to my skill, and not to the grip itself? (By the same token, I shoot barebow at the archery range. Right now my scores so fully suck, particularly compared to those with super-duper sights, and stabilizers, and wrist straps, and this, that, and the other hanging off their bows until they look like something out of Star Trek. But if I can get good shooting barebow, I will really feel like I've accomplished something!)

My reasons for wanting to stick with pistol grip are aesthetic and emotional, which I know carry very little weight when one's priority is fun. But that's not my priority (flame me in private if you must). My priority is competition, which is as valid as any of the other reasons people fence; competition, and lots of steampunky goodness.

Moreover, if the issue is aesthetics, how much better to look good at point control with the pistol grip, when I know the aesthetic is due to my skill, and not to the grip itself? (By the same token, I shoot freestyle at the archery range. Right now my looks fully suck, particularly compared to those with super-duper finishes, and bandanas, and wood, and this, that, and the other not hanging off their bows until they look like something out of Lord of the Rings. But if I can look good shooting freestyle, I will really feel like I've accomplished something!)

[JacoKierkegaard]

Just to play devil's advocate: I'm a dedicated pistol grip user, but I've had situations where due to equipment failure at a tournament I had to use a loaner with a French grip, and I still did really, really well, to the point that I'm pretty sure I didn't lose anything in the switch.

Of course, that does nothing to disprove the general concept (which I still believe in) that purposefully competing with different equipment than you use in practice is a really, really stupid idea. Not quite as bad as "posting with a pistol grip," but still up there.

[WGH]

Just to play devil's advocate: I'm a dedicated pistol grip user, but I've had situations where due to equipment failure at a tournament I had to use a loaner with a French grip, and I still did really, really well, to the point that I'm pretty sure I didn't lose anything in the switch.

Of course, that does nothing to disprove the general concept (which I still believe in) that purposefully competing with different equipment than you use in practice is a really, really stupid idea. Not quite as bad as "posting with a pistol grip," but still up there.

Did you choke up or post on the french?

[telkanuru]

Did I not ask for flames to be private?

You did. You are more than encouraged to ask for whatever you want.

[Gav]

Everyone else here is being too diplomatic about this.

Do not fence with a French grip at all. It offers you nothing.

Dude, considering we're talking about epee then i'm not sure why you've bothered to type this. Enlighten me.

[erooMynohtnA]

Implicit in the first post is that the fencer won't be using the French for posting, only practicing with it held classically to supposedly hone their point control. In that case, it is worse than useless.

[foibles]

To the OP:

The idea behind French grip and point control historically revolves around the concept that learning good point control means learning proper use of the manipulators (thumb and forefinger) to fine-tune manipulation of the point.

Once this has been ingrained into the muscle memory of the student, the French grip offers little or no advantage to the competitive fencer outside of posting.

It's also more difficult for the beginner to flail the wep about in an uncontrolled manner with a properly held French grip.

So, once you you have a controlled hand, decent point control and you're not flailing about, it might be time to cut down the French tang and put a pistol grip on it.

Discuss it with your coach.

Edited to add: The question I'd like to see you ask, then, is not "Should I now compete with a French", but "should I now train with a pistol grip."

[DavidX]

My reasons for wanting to stick with the electric grip are aesthetic and emotional, which I know carry very little weight when one's priority is being lame. But that's not my priority (send me nakie pics in private if you must). My priority is completing a circuit, which is as valid as any of the other reasons people fence; circuitry, and lots of modern minimalist goodness.
Morever, if the issue is aesthetics, how much better to look good at completing a circuit, when I know the aesthetic is due to my skill, and not the properties of electromagnetism itself? (By the same token, I shoot freestyle at the catapult range . Right now my looks fully suck, particularly compared to those with smelted steel, rope and pulley system, and this, that and the other not hanging off their catapults until it looks like something out of Kingdom of Heaven. But if I can look good catapulting freestyle, I will really feel like I've accomplished something!

[Bonehead]

French grip is nice for teaching beginners because it's more obvious to a coach if their holding it wrong.

This is because a french grip held wrong is awful, while a pistol grip held wrong is tolerable.

I fenced a team event once with a guy who 'preferred' french grip. It drove me nuts because he would often make a counter 6 and then miss the riposte because he would death grip the weapon under pressure.

French grip is has no thought put into it as a design. It's existence is purely one of Legacy (if the rules allowed someone would make an extra long pistol grip for posting, and even epeeist wouldn't use french grip). Preferring French grip is like preferring papyrus to paper, and arguing that the Egyptians used papyrus because it was a better writing surface, rather than because they hadn't invented paper yet.

[BenTheEMOP]

Why is the French Grip worse than useless?

I fence with a French grip without posting because I tend to make bigger actions with a pistol grip, especially after I get tired.

What am I missing about the French grip?

[mrbiggs]

This sort of training is not intrinsically bad. Kurt Getz was doing some sort of training with a French grip for awhile (might still be, I have no way of knowing). And he's doing OK for himself. Keep in mind that he's foil and not epee.


But if you're really interested in this type of training, try it out and see if it works for you. And more importantly, talk it over with your coach and see if he has any insight. If your coach doesn't know what to look for while you're using a French grip, or if he doesn't know how to use this training effectively, it might be a safer bet for you to stay with pistol.

It's worth pointing out that the concept that a French grip somehow gives you better point control than a pistol grip is incorrect. And even more incorrect is the concept that you can "fix" your point control by changing your grip. That said, different grips emphasize different actions, and if you know what you're doing, you can take advantage of this emphasis during your training.

As an aside to the OP, it's better if your thread topics have relevant names, such as "french grip point control" or "practice with french grip?" because it makes your threads easier to find. Plus, maybe someone with valuable information will post instead of 10,00000000000 people arguing about what grip is best.

[Bonehead]

Why is the French Grip worse than useless?

I fence with a French grip without posting because I tend to make bigger actions with a pistol grip, especially after I get tired.

What am I missing about the French grip?

Can you explain the mechanism, other than psychological, that makes it so that a pistol grip makes bigger actions?

You should be able to make small actions even if you replace the grip with a small statue of liberty.

A french grip may help your blade actions, but only in the sense that since it doesn't fit your hand, it forces you to think about holding it correctly. Other than that it provides no benefits over any other random grip shape in particular (some slight ergonomics of the grip not withstanding)

A pistol grip is designed to fit your hand and offer the greatest deal of strength over the blade. This may cause larger actions, but only the same way that a faster car may make you drive faster. You can still drive slow in a Ferrari and still make small actions with a pistol grip. Additionally when you need to you can exert more force through the grip, while still having the blade point in the right direction.

Any preference for French grip can be traced back to "I'm used to it", "I have a preference for tradition over functionality", or "I post".

[Fencergrl]

it's a good idea to practice with french grip so you could learn point control, while you fence in competitions with pistol so you have the strength it offers while having that point control?

You should compete with the grip that you practise with. Unlike so many others here, I like both the French & orthopaedic grip. I think it comes down to your fencing style. I have made hits using a French grip I wouldn't have made with my pistol grip and vice versa. Having said that, I mostly fence with a pistol grip and always compete using a pistol grip as this suits my fencing style.

Point control is something that improves with practise, the grip won't make it harder or easier to gain better control. So find a grip you like and use it.

As to why clubs often buy French grips for their beginner classes... it's just cheaper & easier. I coach beginner fencers ages 8 to adult. It's easier to just have left and right hand blades in 2 sizes than also provide a variety of grips in different sizes as well.

PS: Welcome to the forum and please feel free to ignore those that haven't yet learned manners. The vast majority of folks here are able to offer advice without being snarky.

[BenTheEMOP]

Can you explain the mechanism, other than psychological, that makes it so that a pistol grip makes bigger actions?

You should be able to make small actions even if you replace the grip with a small statue of liberty.

A small statue of liberty would be close to a French grip, but I digress.

With a pistol grip, I tend to grip it tighter, which causes me to use my fingers less. It may be purely psychological at that point, but I do tend to lock down.

Also, since I have big hands, I find it hard to find pistol grips that fit my hand, but that is a different story.

I don't notice any loss in strength wiht a french grip, but I also try to avoid arm-wrestling with opponents, since if there is that much force then one is probably better off disengaging.

I think your second paragraph is probably more to the point, which is that it forces me to think about holding it and using it correctly.

So, it probably does come back to a psychological problem. Though it does seem like french grips might be useful for crazies.

[Alexander Kai]

A small statue of liberty would be close to a French grip, but I digress.

This idea is somewhat tempting. One of the problems I've seen, or at least that I had in the beginning was death gripping the french, now the Statue of Liberty as a grip could be very spiky. Perhaps making fencers hold it bare handed would teach them REALLY quickly not to hold it too hard?

Or am I just a masochist?