Question about the flick attack/parries

[Mr. Wizard]

I was just wondering if it is possible to execute a flick attack in sabre. I dont see why not, but i havent seen any reference to it anywhere. Also, id like to know more about the parries in sabre. Im getting mixed messages about them from various sources. Most places state there are only 3 parries, but ive seen up to 7 different parries listed. What are the sabre parries, and why arent there as many as foil/epee? And whats the ruling about passing your opponent on the piste in sabre? because if it is allowed, shouldnt parry 9 be considered a viable sabre parry as well?

[erooMynohtnA]

http://www.fencing.net/forums/faq.ph...ncing_whipover

Regarding saber parries, there are more than 3, and different systems have different numbers or designations. In modern saber you rarely see anything other than the big 3, because anything else is a pretty easy way to get hit.

[RebelFencer]

You could, but it doesn't seem like it would be particularly useful. There are 8 parries, I don't know enough about saber to distinguish the useful ones.

[Bonehead]

If you can flick an S2000 all the power to you.

[catwood1]

The 4 parries you see used the most are 3, 5, 4, and 2. There are a few others, but they are VERY rarely used. You see a 1, or prime, every now and again, but not too much.

You don't see flicks used in sabre. You get whipovers, but those are very different from a flick. The most important reason is because of the difference between sabre parries and foil parries. A good parry in sabre closes a line*, while foil parries are often smaller beat parries. Not always, but much of the time. In sabre, its more effective to change lines around the parry, rather than flick "over" the parry. Also, because of the trianglular blade, a flick in sabre is kinetically awkward to execute, because it has to be lateral.

* Of course you can make a beat parry in sabre, but ya don't see it too often.

[Purple Fencer]

Also, because of the trianglular blade, a flick in sabre is kinetically awkward to execute, because it has to be lateral.

Not always...you just have to snap the blade in the direction the blade wants to bend. If your hand position is palm down (like you're going over the guard for the elbow area), you can do it. LANDING it is another matter...if you make the snap parallel to the other arm, you'll likely miss (I don't like to force a whip over the guard...if I don't hit, it's my opponent's parry)...you have to make the action in such a way that your blade intersects the targ

[catwood1]

I mean laterally in relation to the blade, not anything else.

[Gav]

I was just wondering if it is possible to execute a flick attack in sabre. I dont see why not, but i havent seen any reference to it anywhere. Also, id like to know more about the parries in sabre. Im getting mixed messages about them from various sources. Most places state there are only 3 parries, but ive seen up to 7 different parries listed. What are the sabre parries, and why arent there as many as foil/epee? And whats the ruling about passing your opponent on the piste in sabre? because if it is allowed, shouldnt parry 9 be considered a viable sabre parry as well?

Who says there only 3 parries? Who exactly? And there are 8 basic parries. Some or more generally useful than others.

Everyone else has answered the question about whipover better than I can.

[oiuyt]

Everyone else has answered the question about whipover better than I can.

Although you can close the other two threads with an identical OP better than most...

-B

[MyrddinsPrecint]

The 4 parries you see used the most are 3, 5, 4, and 2. There are a few others, but they are VERY rarely used. You see a 1, or prime, every now and again, but not too much.

If you cannot use 3, 4, and 5, you are not yet a sabre fencer. 2 can be a little trickier, is often taught a little later, and can often be worked around if you don't know it, but is useful to have--- hence the discrepency where some people will tell you that there are a total of three useful parries, and some people will suggest four.

The others to happen occasionally, but.... they usually just kind of happen by accident. Most people under most circumstances don't drill other parries, they just .... happen.

[AndrewH]

Considering how common low line attacks are nowadays (now that they're attacks again!) I would say the 2 is every bit as important as 3, 4, and 5. Learn to do it right though, 2 doesn't involve jumping in the air or having your tip pointed straight down at any point.

Also prime is useful but quite a bit more advanced to learn and use properly. It's great to fake a quick 2 in simultaneous and then come across to prime. It's a once in a blue moon kind of touch but helpful to have at your disposal.

[Purple Fencer]

Considering how common low line attacks are nowadays (now that they're attacks again!) I would say the 2 is every bit as important as 3, 4, and 5. Learn to do it right though, 2 doesn't involve jumping in the air or having your tip pointed straight down at any point.

Indeed....all you have to do is make the parry with the blade horizontal at just below your waist (at the most), the riposte to the forearm...done right, it's lightning-fast...similar to taking a PIL (just higher up).

If you direct the blade into your leg...who cares? It ain't gonna fire a light (might sting, tho)

[catwood1]

Fair enough. Prime is good if you go to 2 and for some reason don't find the blade. Either intentionally with a false 2, or if you legitimately go to 2 then realized your opponent changed lines, prime is probably the best option.

And Purple, thats not what I'd describe as a correct parry 2, so much as a bad 3.

[Purple Fencer]

Fair enough. Prime is good if you go to 2 and for some reason don't find the blade. Either intentionally with a false 2, or if you legitimately go to 2 then realized your opponent changed lines, prime is probably the best option.

And Purple, thats not what I'd describe as a correct parry 2, so much as a bad 3.

I usually refer to it as a modified 2....doesn't matter what you call it so long as it works.

I COULD call it a modified 4 (since it's closer to a bad 4 than a 2), but I like to differentiate it from a correct 4...hence the name "modified 2"

[Stormbringer]

I was just wondering if it is possible to execute a flick attack in sabre. I dont see why not, but i havent seen any reference to it anywhere. Also, id like to know more about the parries in sabre. Im getting mixed messages about them from various sources. Most places state there are only 3 parries, but ive seen up to 7 different parries listed. What are the sabre parries, and why arent there as many as foil/epee? And whats the ruling about passing your opponent on the piste in sabre? because if it is allowed, shouldnt parry 9 be considered a viable sabre parry as well?

Well, part of the reason for the different systems is that sabre parries must successfully defend against both the cut and the thrust, while those traditionally used in foil and epee must only defend against the latter (though, the introduction of flicking - more so with the far-more-flexible foil than the epee - has changed that, somewhat).

For example, here is a previous post - complete with links to diagrams - describing the common epee (and foil) parries.

Here is a diagram that illustrates one system of sabre parries.
The "main five" (first, second, third, fourth, and fifth) are fairly standard and universal, and are what - in my experience, at least - most people mean when they speak of a given specific parry.


As stated earlier, "flicking", as it would be recognized as such in foil or epee, doesn't really exist in sabre; in its place is "whipover", and the equipment and rules do attempt to discourage (over)use of the whipover effect (increased stiffness of the S2000 sabre blades, anti-whipover settings on the scoring machines, and sabre-specific rules regarding parries).

t.78 (g) Attacks by beats on the blade
1. In an attack by beating on the blade, this attack is correctly carried out and retains its priority when the beat is made on the foible of the opponent‘s blade, i.e. the two-thirds of the blade furthest from the guard.
2. In an attack by beating on the blade, when the beat is made on the forte of the opponent‘s blade, i.e. the one-third of the blade nearest the guard, the attack is badly executed and the beat gives the opponent the right to an immediate riposte.

t.79 (h) The parry gives the right to riposte; a simple riposte may be direct or indirect, but in order to annul any subsequent movement by the attacker, it must be carried out immediately, without any hesitation or pause. Against cuts with the cutting edge, the flat or the back of the blade, the object of the parry is to prevent touches made by the opponent arriving on the valid target; therefore:
1. The parry is properly carried out when, before the completion of the attack, it prevents the arrival of that attack by closing the line in which that attack is to finish.
2. When a parry is properly executed, the attack by the opponent must be declared parried, and judged as such by the Referee, even if, as a result of its flexibility, the tip of the opponent‘s weapon makes contact with the target.

Appendix B, Section C, Subsection B
5. If the contact between the blade and the opponent‘s target takes place 'through the blade', the apparatus:
— will register the touch between 0 and 4 ms (+ 1 ms);
— will prevent the touch being registered between 4 and 15 ms (+ 5 ms), on condition that the contact between the two blades is not interrupted more than a maximum of 10 times in the interval.

6. Should there be a touch made by the whipping over of the blade which has not been signalled, whatever method has been used to prevent the signalling, after 15 ms (± 5 ms) from the contact of the blade with the valid target (the time for the registering of the whip) and unless there has been another touch, the apparatus should allow the normal registering of any subsequent touches.

[oiuyt]

I usually refer to it as a modified 2....doesn't matter what you call it so long as it works.

I COULD call it a modified 4 (since it's closer to a bad 4 than a 2), but I like to differentiate it from a correct 4...hence the name "modified 2"

*thump*

*thump**thump**thump**thump*

Okay, now both my head AND my desk hurt.

-B

[Bonehead]

Okay, unless someone is using Italian (and I mean traditional Italian, not modern day Italian) nomenclature then something is dreadfully amiss.

I usually refer to it as a modified 2....doesn't matter what you call it so long as it works.

Either it's a 4 or it's a 2 (or possibly a 3)

And Purple, thats not what I'd describe as a correct parry 2, so much as a bad

Only for my peace of mind, can you describe what the parry looks like? Is the tip above or below your guard? Which direction do you move your opponents blade?

[catwood1]

Okay, unless someone is using Italian (and I mean traditional Italian, not modern day Italian) nomenclature then something is dreadfully amiss.



Either it's a 4 or it's a 2 (or possibly a 3)



Only for my peace of mind, can you describe what the parry looks like? Is the tip above or below your guard? Which direction do you move your opponents blade?

If only you actually looked at the links already posted in this thread

http://totheescrime.org/ifc/BEAUMONT/Sabre/index.html is it more or less.

[Purple Fencer]

Either it's a 4 or it's a 2 (or possibly a 3)

Nope....the blade position's not any of those.

Only for my peace of mind, can you describe what the parry looks like? Is the tip above or below your guard? Which direction do you move your opponents blade?

Sure (and would someone get Brad a compress?). If I see someone coming at me from below, he's already lower than my blade (presuming I'm in 3). if I position my blade at the actual point of contact about horizontal and around my waist level, I'll parry that attack...which leaves the arm or head open to a riposte.

Sometimes if my opponent is just standing there in 3, I'll come in and beat his blade from underneath a few times. I'm not trying to launch a beat attack from that position however...I want him to disengage around me and go for his shot....which puts him in position for me to make my parry. 'Course, I'm depending on him to do a full disengage into my 4 area...if he just does a line change to my 3 I have to react faster...

I only call it a modified 2 because it's not a traditional parry that I'm familiar with, although for me it IS a defined position...if that blade wasn't there for me to hit, my blade would probably rotate around to a true 2.

It's a lot more valid of an action than trying to pull of a 6 (which is a VERY weak parry). Mariel Zagunis used a similar action in Athens in 04 (don't remember if it in the semis or finals, tho). It may not have had a name....I just wanted to formalize it a bit for when I teach...newish students do better when they have a description to remember it by.

I'm hoping to actually compete some time this year (for the first time since around 2003)....we'll see how much my teaching duties have helped or hindered my sabre fencing, and if my personal theories hold up in actual practice.

[Wetmelon]

Looking at this link... I've never heard of prime being shown at that position. Only with your hand about forehead height.

Sure (and would someone get Brad a compress?). If I see someone coming at me from below, he's already lower than my blade (presuming I'm in 3). if I position my blade at the actual point of contact about horizontal and around my waist level, I'll parry that attack...which leaves the arm or head open to a riposte.

Hehe. A couple guys on my team love the low line attack... particularly because one of them seems to float across the ground when he does it - totally throwing off your distance. I once got a beautiful parry 2, went for his head, and he DUCKED my attack, parried 5 in the duck, and whacked me. I was amazed xD