Popularity of different weapons

[Bonehead]

Wow, all those examples of self coached guys are really impressive. I don't think I would be able to do that. The pure repetition of lessons seems immensely helpful, let alone the explanations and choices of development path provided for me.

Without coaching of some sort I am certain that I would come up with really bad ideas and ruminate on them for years.

That's very impressive.

[K O'N]

I hear Oiuyt is a kinda good sabre fencer who is self taught. He did recently make the finals of a Division 1 NAC...

Wow, really? I find that astonishing. I guess I retract my "you'll never figure it out on your own" statement, then. Perhaps I should change it to "I would have never figured it out on my own".

K O'N

[Fencergrl]

I know a very good foil fencer who usually fences all three weapons in tournaments. She's never had a lesson in sabre. She only fences when she can borrow equipment. For epee, I think she uses her boyfriend's blades.

Having fenced her, she's tough to beat in any weapon. My experience is that if someone is a smart fencer it often doesn't matter what blade they're holding.

[Bonehead]

I know a Women's Epeeist who has won Nationals multiple times but couldn't medal in a local sabre tournament.

She is a smart fencer, but some people are just better at one or the other. Certain styles don't carry well between weapons.

[Fencergrl]

Agreed... my former coach was an epeeist who looked hilarious fencing sabre. You're right, some are able to cross over to other weapons, some aren't. Some are successful self-taught in a second weapon, some aren't.

Back on topic... I think there's less sabre fencers because some coaches teach foil because they believe that's a good weapon to start a fencer with.

Some coaches are willing to teach any weapon, but epee is the least expensive for a fencer or a club just starting out.

That leaves sabre in "no man's land". It has the expense of foil without a lot of coaches pushing it as a weapon. It's tough for my younger sabre fencers to get a lot of competition as locally there's not a lot of kids their age competing.

[catwood1]

Do you guys think its the case that there are more foil coaches that also coach epee as a 2nd weapon as compared to sabre. I haven't done any exhaustive study on this, but off the top of my head, it seems like there are alot of foil coaches that dabble in epee but see sabre as "completely different." If this is the case, then it leads to having foil/epee coaches, and sabre coaches.

I have a hard time thinking of any high level sabre coaches that are also high level foil or epee coaches. Although that could be because they choose to only do sabre. IIRC, Korfanty used to coach some high level epee fencers. Or am I being dumb?

[piste off]

Do you guys think its the case that there are more foil coaches that also coach epee as a 2nd weapon as compared to sabre. I haven't done any exhaustive study on this, but off the top of my head, it seems like there are alot of foil coaches that dabble in epee but see sabre as "completely different." If this is the case, then it leads to having foil/epee coaches, and sabre coaches.

I have a hard time thinking of any high level sabre coaches that are also high level foil or epee coaches. Although that could be because they choose to only do sabre. IIRC, Korfanty used to coach some high level epee fencers. Or am I being dumb?

Two of my coaches were high level sabre coaches who also produced national champion and Olympian epeeists and foilists; Csiszar and Yefim Litvan. The later is Ben Igoe's coach, but also coached Tamir Bloom and Cliff Bayer.

There are a few others, including Aladar Kogler... But I think you are right about the breakdown.

R-

[piste off]

Tim Glass was 3rd in the U20 world championships in the mid 70s, entirely self coached.

Sebastiani coached him at that event (source: both of them).

R-

[Alexander Kai]

Agreed... my former coach was an epeeist who looked hilarious fencing sabre. You're right, some are able to cross over to other weapons, some aren't. Some are successful self-taught in a second weapon, some aren't.

Back on topic... I think there's less sabre fencers because some coaches teach foil because they believe that's a good weapon to start a fencer with.

Some coaches are willing to teach any weapon, but epee is the least expensive for a fencer or a club just starting out.

That leaves sabre in "no man's land". It has the expense of foil without a lot of coaches pushing it as a weapon. It's tough for my younger sabre fencers to get a lot of competition as locally there's not a lot of kids their age competing.

You're right on that account, as I am in the same boat myself. I enjoy Sabre, it seems simpler to me, I consider myself a sabreist at heart and given the opportunity would fence my heart out to it.

But alas... I just don't have the level of training or experience with it I would like to make a tournament worthwhile for me to go to [[if I were to fence strictly sabre]]. Sure I can top 8, but I have to win to get a rating (I won't get on THAT soap box). Of course I still try.

Now with Epee on the other hand, I see improvement in every competition I go to. Perhaps I'm naturally talented Perhaps (because I started with Foil) my initial weapon carried over to Epee better than it did to Sabre. There are a lot of factors (never mind the fact that I spend all of my time coaching, and none of my time competing.)

Back to my first point, I do not have the resources, nor is there the people/interest around for me to REALLY take sabre to the level I would like to take it to. There is a coach, and he is VERY good. There are people, willing to fence it, but in my eyes, it is not enough, and more importantly, I don't want to go to a tournament and discover that its done in 20 mins because that's how fast sabre goes.

Of course sleeping in is always nice.

[catwood1]

and more importantly, I don't want to go to a tournament and discover that its done in 20 mins because that's how fast sabre goes.

So the part of competing you like is the waiting around between bouts?

[Bonehead]

Hold on here.

I've been hearing a lot of talk of people who coach, but haven't been coached themselves. Is this common?

[K O'N]

Sebastiani coached him at that event (source: both of them).

R-

That's interesting. I often hear these days that he "coached himself to a national championship", but that's always seemed suspect to me. He was at Sebastiani when he won nationals in 79, so he was getting (very good) coaching then. But you say he was getting coaching in 75, when he placed in U20?

If you know him, perhaps you could encourage him to write up how he trained himself, when he started getting coaching and what the transition was like, that would make a very interesting article, I think.

Thanks for the correction,

K O'N

[whtouche]

And IIRC he enjoyed a fairly sucessful collegiate fencing career doing epee prior to taking up saber.

I hear he once saved a woman and her infant son from a bear by strangling it to death with his bare hands.

[Purple Fencer]

Hold on here.

I've been hearing a lot of talk of people who coach, but haven't been coached themselves. Is this common?

Sometimes...I had sporadic lessons here and there during my competitive career, but nothing continual or in depth, as I could not afford it.

Don't equate not being coached with the inability to be able to compete effectively or pass on what you learn.

In 2001 I had my all-time best competitive result...29th in Div III men's foil at Summer Nats...out of a field of around 180.

I was the highest placing fencer in that division and weapon from the SoCal division (don't remember how many went, but since the event was in state, SoCal had a good turnout), AND I placed higher than anyone else from my salle, including about 5 people who had heavy coaching from a man who -- until men's team foil was dropped for the 08 Olympics -- was on track for a spot.

In one of my DEs,we got to the break and I was ahead by about 5. I'm taking a drink at my end of the strip and am looking at my opponent at the other end, getting advice from his coach...the only problem was, the coach was facing me and I could clearly see the coach telling his fencer how to counter me.

I didn't need a coach to figure out how to counter HIS counter, and I won handily.

I'll certainly grant that self-coaching can only take one so far...and if you want to make national teams, you need to find someone to do that job....but self-coaching is not the kiss-of-death...and just about anyone who's competed has stepped in to help noobs at their salle.

People CAN figure out effective techniques on their own.

[Alexander Kai]

So the part of competing you like is the waiting around between bouts?

Lol, if you can call it a wait. In Sabre, I have JUST enough time to catch my breath before being called back on the strip. For DE's I can wait maybe 2 minutes between bouts, provided I wont my DE of course.

My point is I'd like to see a larger tournament in my area (50 or so sabreists) with a decent bell curve of skills. But truly I can't complain because I can't change the population.

Sometimes...I had sporadic lessons here and there during my competitive career, but nothing continual or in depth, as I could not afford it.

To begin with, I'd like to say good job on that win.

My lessons are sporadic as well, mostly because of time and location (there are no coaches where I go to school at, but there are coaches at home). I spend time self-coaching and coaching others because well, I have a fencing club on my hands (I shouldn't word it that way but you know what I mean.)

Though the difference here is though, that I always get jealous of someone who has that coaching, or even if its not a coach (just a family member maybe giving encouragement) I'm always wishing I had someone on my side of the strip every now and then. In the recent past that's changed a bit, I haven't said anything specific, but other fencers who I am good friends with have helped me with assistance here and there, (thank you all) but for a long time I went it alone.

And for going it alone I didn't do all too bad to be honest. But let's face it, I need the coaching.

---

ANYWAY!

To answer Bonehead's question, I think its a bit more common than we think, but its not so common as to be the norm. We have a sport where due to the expenses and styles of teaching our geographical situations, (as well as monetary situations) often prohibit proper coaching, but the fact is that good fencers are still capable of shining through without coaching (granted coaching can possibly help them get farther.)

I would like to back my point with the fact that fencing is an individualistic sport. Everything is on you when you fence, at the end of the day if you won, lost, got a point, or didn't get a point, it was YOU that did, or didn't do it and no one else. Which is why I think self-coaching is common.

This also brings me to the point of having others coach you, and why self-coached people coach others. However I will defer to Purple Fencer best as he has said it better than I can.

[oiuyt]

And IIRC he enjoyed a fairly sucessful collegiate fencing career doing epee prior to taking up saber.

Not how I would describe it.

I hear he once saved a woman and her infant son from a bear by strangling it to death with his bare hands.

Also not how I would describe it.

I was a marginal C-level epeeist by my senior year in college. I did well enough for the level at which I was competing, but, for example, wasn't close to making NCAAs.

I am a significantly better epeeist now than I was when I graduated. And obviously have shown even more improvement as a sabre fencer.*

-B

* I started fencing sabre slightly under a year after I graduated from college.