Foil vs Saber in a bout.

[DavidX]

Here is the scenario:

Foilist is equipped in all full saber gear - mask and everything - with a foil for weapon. Sabreereeur has a saber but only a foil lame for target area. Foilist is extremely bodacious with long fierce attacks - sabererurs have been doing saber for years.

Who wins?

Why?

[dberke]

Here is the scenario:

Foilist is equipped in all full saber gear - mask and everything - with a foil for weapon. Sabreereeur has a saber but only a foil lame for target area. Foilist is extremely bodacious with long fierce attacks - sabererurs have been doing saber for years.

Who wins?

Why?

If the scoring machine is set to foil, the bout will never be fenced since the saber fencer will get a constant off-target light. If both his B & C lines are connected to fix the off-target light, the foilist will win because the saber fencer won't be able to turn on a light.

If the machine is set to saber, the saberuist will probably win. The foilist will be able to use the edge of their blade as well as the tip, but since their opponent has a smaller target, they're at a disadvantage.

See what happens when you ask a dumb question?

Dan

(Armourers: please correct me if my analysis of the circuitry is wrong!)

[DHCJr]

If the scoring machine is set to foil, the bout will never be fenced since the saber fencer will get a constant off-target light. If both his B & C lines are connected to fix the off-target light, the foilist will win because the saber fencer won't be able to turn on a light.

If the machine is set to saber, the saberuist will probably win. The foilist will be able to use the edge of their blade as well as the tip, but since their opponent has a smaller target, they're at a disadvantage.

See what happens when you ask a dumb question?

Dan

(Armourers: please correct me if my analysis of the circuitry is wrong!)

I am afraid you are.

If it is set at Foil, the Sabre fencer will have a permanent B-C short in the weapon and will never be able to break the circuit. Thus he can never get a touch. To get an off-target you must break the B-C short. To get a valid touch you must break the B-C short while completing a B to A of the opposing fencer.

If it is set at Sabre, then it would be more difficult to analyse. To get the best advantage the Foilist would not have tape on the blade. They have an extra 2cm in blade length and many Sabre fencers are not as familiar with point attacks. The sabre fencer has some advantages. The Foilist target is closer then theirs. The Foilist might get in trouble for the crossing of feet.

[Purple Fencer]

The winner is whoever screams the loudest....so the sabeur wins. (unless the foilist is Chris Dollar....my GOD, that boy can wake the dead several states away....even Helen Keller would knock her hand against her head and say "Damn!")

[edew]

I am afraid you are.

If it is set at Foil, the Sabre fencer will have a permanent B-C short in the weapon and will never be able to break the circuit. Thus he can never get a touch. To get an off-target you must break the B-C short. To get a valid touch you must break the B-C short while completing a B to A of the opposing fencer.

If it is set at Sabre, then it would be more difficult to analyse. To get the best advantage the Foilist would not have tape on the blade. They have an extra 2cm in blade length and many Sabre fencers are not as familiar with point attacks. The sabre fencer has some advantages. The Foilist target is closer then theirs. The Foilist might get in trouble for the crossing of feet.

In foil, if the B-C is shorted and then hits A, there should be a light. As long as there's a signal on the B-A connection, there should be a light.

Of course, the saber fencer would win in that case because he can use any part of the blade and hit a larger target while the foil fencer can only hit with a thrust onto a smaller target.

If the machine is set to saber, any part of the foil or saber blade can hit and will count (actually happened to me at the Miami Nationals: somehow the machine was reset to saber and both of us managed to get flicks on that we didn't think could have hit, even in old timing. It was those stupid SG machines where breaks would make that small thin line of light go on).

[oiuyt]

In foil, if the B-C is shorted and then hits A, there should be a light. As long as there's a signal on the B-A connection, there should be a light.

This is incorrect.

Go hook up to a scoring machine set to foil. Lightly touch the other lamé without depressing the tip. There's a B-A connection, but no B-C break. No light.

-B

[Bonehead]

Good ol Flaber.

As far as I remember this only really works with the box on sabre. Which of course means that your now using the foil as a sabre, only there's tape on the end, and less of a hand guard, and apparently (according to the description) your opponent has far less target area than you do (most importantly the leading target on the hand).

All else being equal Foilist would get his ass kicked.

More fun is have the sabre fencer wearing sabre kit, and the foil fencer in foil kit and putting the box on sabre. You can also tell the foilist that they have to hit with the point (maybe put more tape on the blade). This becomes a much closer bout, since the leading target and flickyness of the foil mitigates the benefits of cutting with the sabre.

Also fun is taking a body wire and and splicing in a second body wire such that the circuit of each wire is in series (not parallel). This allows fencers to use two foils on one box; but it's very difficult to judge foil conventions.

Also fun is to just put the box on sabre and use tinfoil weapons, or big foam weapons covered in tinfoil.

[edew]

This is incorrect.

Go hook up to a scoring machine set to foil. Lightly touch the other lamé without depressing the tip. There's a B-A connection, but no B-C break. No light.

-B

Yeah that makes sense.

[prototoast]

This is incorrect.

Go hook up to a scoring machine set to foil. Lightly touch the other lamé without depressing the tip. There's a B-A connection, but no B-C break. No light.

-B

If the saber fencer had a small break in his body cord, he could conceivably hit on target and the impact of the hit could jiggle the cord enough to break the connection and get a light. Or with a cross-wired body cord and a poorly grounded socked, the same thing could be achieved. Sort of a poor man's capteur.

[SJCFU#2]

If the saber fencer had a small break in his body cord, he could conceivably hit on target and the impact of the hit could jiggle the cord enough to break the connection and get a light. Or with a cross-wired body cord and a poorly grounded socked, the same thing could be achieved. Sort of a poor man's capteur.

That's assuming that the break in the B-C circuit due to the loose connection lasted longer than the debounce time (14msec).

And if the connections were loose enough to last longer than the debounce time then just about every action would probably also end with an off-target light caused by the intermittent break every time the saber fencer moved his hand (captuers had these breaks all the time but the machine ignored them unless the C-A' circuit closed (i.e. the blade contacted the opponent's target area) or the break lasted so long that the machine decided there must be a fault).

[telkanuru]

How is this actually being discussed with due gravity and seriousness?

[K O'N]

How is this actually being discussed with due gravity and seriousness?

I don't know, but as long as we're talking about it, who would win if you put a tennis player and a racquetball player in a 4' diameter concrete culvert with a live hamster?

K O'N

[DavidX]

Because I did it.

The box is set to saber - I am in full saber gear my opponent in a foil vest. It works perfectly.

The only thing is that if I off target him - HIS white light goes off - and the only minor hiccup is that if his saber touches the point (and point only) his white light goes off as well. Everything else is perfect - I wear my motorcycle gauntlet to make up for lack of bellguard and that is it - he has all that target and the entire blade length to score - I have the tip and his vest.

The trick is to never let it get to infighting - where all they have to do is wave their stupid looking blade around in my general direction until they accidently brush up against some metal - also to lunge first fast and deep if they start the saber charge.

I won - I fought two sabereurs - one who has been doing it for years with much competition experience and the other an E saber fencer who has been at it for a couple years. I am unrated and have been fencing for less than a year.

I have the video - and will post it soon so that you all may be witness to my limitless deadly vigour.

[Bonehead]

I won - I fought two sabereurs - one who has been doing it for years with much competition experience and the other an E saber fencer who has been at it for a couple years. I am unrated and have been fencing for less than a year.

Enough said.

Also, I like this thread, but maybe a mod can move it to the water cooler?

[DavidX]

Enough said.

Also, I like this thread, but maybe a mod can move it to the water cooler?

Get bent canadian. This thread is awesome and will showcase the long standing rivalry betwixt weapons bringing up some very interesting questions and may even spawn a whole new dimension to the sport.

It is surely as legit as an asinine discussion on whether or not fencing would help you hand out a beatdown or a japanese shampoo commercial.

[Bonehead]

Sorry David, i didn't mean to come off as sarcastic.

I DO like this thread! And for sure it's more legitimate than some shampoo commercial, or the numerous other things that come up in this section. I still think it's probably water cooler talk though.

[Fencergrl]

Bonehead... no need to apologize to DavidX. He's well... a few timbits short of a box.

[migopod]

Good ol Flaber.

I believe the correct hybridization of foil and sabre is "Fail"*.

As far as who would win it's obviously the epeeist**.




* or "Soil"
** unless it's like AvP where Whoever[sic] wins... We lose.

[DavidX]

Is that canadian slang for "so righteous it make your pets heads fall off"?
I'm debating on whether or not to go out tonight - but if I don't I'll post the video here and it will be full of awesome and completely relevant to fencing.

Don't worry bonehead - I still need you - like the desert needs the rain.

[Fencergrl]

Is that canadian slang for "so righteous it make your pets heads fall off"?

Yes DavidX... another way of putting it is your "two-four holds 20"... afterall, how can anything/anyone with 20 beers be anything but awesome???

You're da man!
Be mean to the people that know you all you want, but don't mess with newcomers & Canadians m'dear.