Child brings gun to school, then the idiocy starts

[melensdad]

Society needs a lot of help when the schools stop thinking and start doing this type of crap! Zero tolerance policies are idiotic when carried beyond their logical intent. I have to guess that this school's policy will also eliminate all photos/images of guns in textbooks when they read about the Revolutionary War? And I just have to wonder if they are teaching about "The shot heard round the world" at this school?

Rather than think, they'd prefer to traumatize a kid who apparently loves school and simply had some Legos to play with during recess. Oh, and its a Lego policeman and his gun that got the kid in trouble. Apparently in this schools fantasy world policemen are not supposed to have guns? When I went to school it was legal to have a gun in your car during hunting season and it was not all that uncommon! Boy have times changed for the worse.

Two-inch LEGO gun gets 4th-grader in trouble
Parents left fuming after principal threatens the boy with suspension

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/352347...-today_people/
TODAY staff and wire
updated 6:56 a.m. PT, Thurs., Feb. 4, 2010
A tiny toy led to big trouble for one fourth-grade New York City boy.

Patrick Timoney, a 9-year-old student at PS 52 in Staten Island, N.Y., was in the school cafeteria Tuesday playing with LEGOs when he was taken to the principal’s office and threatened with suspension. One of his toys was a LEGO policeman that holds a 2-inch plastic gun. The school has a no-tolerance policy when it comes to toy guns.

“[The gun] was so little,” the boy told WNBC. “I wouldn’t really think that the principal would cause a lot of commotion just for a little gun.”

The boy’s mother, Laura Timoney, 44, was fuming over the issue.

“You don’t traumatize a child who loved to go to school, who wanted to be early every day to school, you don’t make him cry, you don’t make him fill out statements,” she told WNBC, holding back tears. “You don’t do it.”

Pat Timoney, the boy’s father and a retired police officer, was also upset, saying that he’s dealt with people who use imitation weapons as a way to threaten others and commit crimes, and that this situation is different, considering the pinky-size gun in question.

The toy was confiscated by principal Evelyn Mastroianni, a conference was held with the boy and his parents, and ultimately, no further disciplinary action was taken.

[Inquartata]

But it's making a safer breed of adult!

I was talking to a police academy DT instructor last week. He said that they are getting more and more cadets who have never been in a fight. No experience with defending themselves whatsoever. Which makes for fine, docile citizens, but bad police officers.

[Gav]

He'd probably be sent to Gitmo if he had some of this Lego...

[MyrddinsPrecint]

.... I realize that's a ridiculously small gun in actual size, but it's a HUGE gun in size compared to the lego man.... How does little lego man lift that?? My lego men largely did not have accessories, but the ones I had that did.... Uh, once I got into college... were very small, size appropriate, and very easy to lose accessories....

Honestly, the whole thing's more of a choking hazard than anything else....

[Gav]

.... I realize that's a ridiculously small gun in actual size, but it's a HUGE gun in size compared to the lego man.... How does little lego man lift that?? My lego men largely did not have accessories, but the ones I had that did.... Uh, once I got into college... were very small, size appropriate, and very easy to lose accessories....

Honestly, the whole thing's more of a choking hazard than anything else....

You mean that solid piece of plastic isn't a real gun? For sure? Gosh.

[kalivor]

Could be worse. The kid could have brought some mint to school. THAT would warrant a suspension!

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/nat...osition=recent

[chase]

It is troubling to see our most important right being eroded away by totalitarian liberalism. Between this, the Obama praise songs, and assignments on "how to help the President" I do not think that we have a chance.

[migopod]

Can't blame Obama for Zero Tolerance unfortunately. This kind of stuff has been happening at least since Columbine. Among my personal favourite retarded school decisions is the one where a kid gets either expelled or suspended for having a replica weapon in his car. The replica weapon was a 4" metal baseball bat that had broken off of a trophy that he had won playing highschool baseball for that very school. Completely ignored were the actual baseball bats in his car for use at baseball practice later that day.

I think that in general you'll find a lot of liberal opposition to ZT in the same way that you'll find a lot of liberal opposition to the "post 9/11" erosion of civil liberties that happened under Bush / Cheney.

By the way it's a stupid assertion that the 2nd amendment is our most important right. I've seen various quotes suggesting that the right to bear arms is what ensures all other rights, but if this were true why do gun activists contest what they feel to be violations of the 2nd amendment in court? I would say that free speech and due process are by far the most important rights. Lawyers have done more to ensure our civil liberties than has an armed population. This is true both of lawyers from the ACLU and lawyers representing the NRA.

Like your freedom? Thank a lawyer.

[jessicasimpson]

I have to guess that this school's policy will also eliminate all photos/images of guns in textbooks when they read about the Revolutionary War?

Maybe they could get Speilberg to edit out the guns and replace them with walkie talkies.

[fencerchica]

Dammit, migopod, it won't let me rep you again yet.

[Philistine]

{snip}
I think that in general you'll find a lot of liberal opposition to ZT in the same way that you'll find a lot of liberal opposition to the "post 9/11" erosion of civil liberties that happened under Bush / Cheney.
{snip}

Honest question--is there any vocal support for zero tolerance policies with this type of results from anybody, liberal or conservative? When these things come up, I don't really see anybody defending them.

AFAICT, the only people these policies serve are the administrators of schools (or wherever they are in place) so that they don't have to actually make a hard decision. The thinking being--yes this case was silly, but what if the toy were big enough that it could possibly be mistaken for a real gun? That's the case that we're really worried about, and if we don't react to the tiny toy, our decision on the realistic toy might be challenged.

I find this attitude pretty craven. Whether it is because administrators really don't want to have to make decisions, or a (unrealistic IMHO) fear of increased litigation if they don't do it, I don't know. but nobody else really seems to be in favor of "real" zero tolerance policies that have such absurd results.

--Philistine

[Sean Butler]

I would say that free speech and due process are by far the most important rights. Lawyers have done more to ensure our civil liberties than has an armed population. This is true both of lawyers from the ACLU and lawyers representing the NRA.

Like your freedom? Thank a lawyer.

Hmm, I think you might be right if you are limiting the scope of this statement to the events after the Revolutionary War. All the pen wielding lawyers like John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and Alexander Hamilton would have done exactly squat if it weren't for the fact that they had an army of gun-toting freedom fighters under the leadership of General Washington at their disposal. There's a good reason why our first president was a military man.

I often wonder when I hear stories like this toy gun case, what is happening in the mind of the person who picks up a two inch toy gun and says, hey that's a weapon! It makes me think that these folks are no longer living in the real world. It's as if they have stepped off the world and onto the fictional map of of Jean Baudrillard's simulacrum.

[migopod]

Honest question--is there any vocal support for zero tolerance policies with this type of results from anybody, liberal or conservative? When these things come up, I don't really see anybody defending them.

AFAICT, the only people these policies serve are the administrators of schools (or wherever they are in place) so that they don't have to actually make a hard decision. The thinking being--yes this case was silly, but what if the toy were big enough that it could possibly be mistaken for a real gun? That's the case that we're really worried about, and if we don't react to the tiny toy, our decision on the realistic toy might be challenged.
...

I think that probably some school administrators like to have the decision made already. Some people think that ZT can be better because it is supposedly less likely to lead to differential severity of punishment for similar violations because of personal vendettas by administrators or even minority status of the student which some studies indicate is a problem.

I suppose school boards and parents often like these policies when they're enacted because they seem at first glance to be a tough policy designed to ensure safe schools. It's not until the rule inevitably results in kids getting expelled for drawing* a gun or get stripsearched for allegedly having advil that people realize the problem inherent in the policy.

I think it's similar to the Bush response to 9/11. The USA Patriot act was passed with virtually no opposition because it was deemed necessary to keep us safe, despite being a Really Bad Thing.

*drawing as in with pencil on paper, not as in removing from a holster.

[migopod]

Hmm, I think you might be right if you are limiting the scope of this statement to the events after the Revolutionary War. All the pen wielding lawyers like John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and Alexander Hamilton would have done exactly squat if it weren't for the fact that they had an army of gun-toting freedom fighters under the leadership of General Washington at their disposal. There's a good reason why our first president was a military man.

I often wonder when I hear stories like this toy gun case, what is happening in the mind of the person who picks up a two inch toy gun and says, hey that's a weapon! It makes me think that these folks are no longer living in the real world. It's as if they have stepped off the world and onto the fictional map of of Jean Baudrillard's simulacrum.

Edit: Disclaimer.
I do not in any way mean that I believe the second amendment right to be trivial or unimportant. I just find it really dumb when people make the claim that it is upon the second amendment that all of our rights depend, or call it "the most important right". As I said if any right could be seen as most important, I'd put in a strong nomination for free speech and due process.

I'm generally referring to post-revolutionary America. It can easily be argued that without the citizenry taking up arms and taking on the redcoats that our freedoms today would be substantially diminished (although Canada didn't really seem to experience that outcome).

What I'm referring to is that armed private citizens have historically not fought the government to "preserve our rights" in the US. That fight has been largely through the efforts lawyers. Take for example the recent Heller decision. The expansion of gun rights was not won because people exercised their second amendment rights. One could presumably make an exception for the US Civil war when armed citizens in the belief that their rights were being violated took up arms against the government, but what with the end result of that particular conflict I wouldn't consider the effort much of a success.

By the way,
I believe most school policies ban weapons and replica weapons without being particularly specific about the degree of realism of the replica. Hence the problem with zero tolerance policies

[migopod]

By the way, after re-reading the article in the OP, this kid actually was very lucky. Basically his punishment was a stern talking to and confiscation of his toy. There are numerous cases where ZT policies result in suspension or expulsion for similarly innocent "offenses"

Randy Cassingham at thisistrue.com writes extensively about ZT incidents in schools.

Check it

[jessicasimpson]

First let me state that what happened to this kid was just silly.
Now, as an admin in a school, from my experiance, here is the problem. Little johny brings a 2 inch plastic gun to school, fine, no harm. But then little billy brings his perfect scale plastic Gloc a week latter and scares the hell out of students and parents. Problem. When Billy is punished, Billy's parents (who think little Billy is perfect, and can do nothing wrong what-so-ever) will start screaming "Johny brought a toy gun to school, why the hell can't Billy bring a toy gun to school?!?" Lots of problems for everyone.

[Sean Butler]

I should think that it is entirely relevant that the so-called weapon must have some realistic properties to be considered a replica. Let me just throw out some counter examples:

* A girl wears earrings which look exactly like an M-16 but are about half an inch long. Would anyone believe that these are weapons?

* A boy brings an enitrely bright red, see-through, water-filled squirtgun that has the basic shape and size of a Desert Eagle.

* A child brings a medium-sized ping-pong ball shooter.

Aside from the fact that a school might not allow squirtguns and ping pong ball shooters specifically, I don't think anyone who wasn't completely insane would ever call any of these items weapons or replicas of weapons which might fool a person into thinking they had something dangerous or deadly.

Is it our goal as a society, even when we say zero-tolerance, to turn off our brains and start to function like automatons? I find it hard to believe that ZT also means zero-thought or zero-truth.

[Fiat Slug]

By the way, after re-reading the article in the OP, this kid actually was very lucky. Basically his punishment was a stern talking to and confiscation of his toy. There are numerous cases where ZT policies result in suspension or expulsion for similarly innocent "offenses"

Good catch. The kid was not actually suspended so this is really much ado about nothing. The reporter did not interview the school so we only have one side of the story. The mother even talked about sueing because her son had a toy confiscated and there was a parent conference. I think everyone needs to just calm down.

.

[Bayou Bum]

By the way it's a stupid assertion that the 2nd amendment is our most important right. I've seen various quotes suggesting that the right to bear arms is what ensures all other rights, but if this were true why do gun activists contest what they feel to be violations of the 2nd amendment in court? I would say that free speech and due process are by far the most important rights. Lawyers have done more to ensure our civil liberties than has an armed population. This is true both of lawyers from the ACLU and lawyers representing the NRA.

Like your freedom? Thank a lawyer.

LMAO! I can't think of anything I would enjoy more than sending an army of lawyers into combat to defend our rights. People would be demanding more wars! LOL

Some of my favorite quotes from people who would disagree with you:

When only cops have guns, it's called a police state. - Claire Wolfe

Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. - James Madison

The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed. - Alexander Hamilton

Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest. - Mohandas Gandhi

One of the ordinary modes, by which tyrants accomplish their purposes without resistance, is, by disarming the people, and making it an offense to keep arms. - Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story

As to the species of exercise, I advise the gun. While this gives [only] moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun, therefore, be the constant companion to your walks. - Thomas Jefferson to his nephew

Taking my gun away because I might shoot someone is like cutting my tongue out because I might yell `Fire!' in a crowded theater. - Peter Venetoklis

Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power.- Yoshimi Ishikawa

The possession of arms is the distinction between a freeman and a slave.

[migopod]

Not what I was talking about. First, having an armed military to send into combat to "defend our freedom" isn't the same thing at all. Second, I'm not suggesting disarming the population. What I'm suggesting is that while the right to keep and bear arms is an important right, people seem to have this idea that private ownership of firearms is what guarantees all of our other rights, when time and time throughout US history it's been activists and lawyers who have worked to protect against the erosion of our civil rights. Remember Heller. If the 2nd amendment was on what all our other rights depend, why did the limitations of the 2nd amendment need things like judges, lawyers and probably some activists to get overturned? Why didn't people just use their guns?