Obama proposes largest defense budget since WWII

[DavidX]

we could frolic - I haven't froliced in so long - it's an excercise best left to a duo - a duo basking in the warm glow of a friendly bond on a field of shared experience in the valley of brotherly love.

[Black Sunshine]

You are one weird fellow.

And he left out a pun. DX, that will just never work with Inq. He hasn't repped LN in about 9 years. Skipping through the tulips without some seriously egregious pun just is not going to happpen. However, you would make a great couple in the Planes, Trains, and Automobiles sense.

I did run his name through the Jersey Shore name generator. Inq came up as Juice Box. I find that vaguely amusing.

[DavidX]

Juice Box - Juice Dizzle - we can be fast and famous friends - think of the possibilities!

(Black sunshine shouldn't you be in bed - transubstantiating to your etheric form and preying on the warm red energy of the susceptible young male?)

[Black Sunshine]

Juice Box - Juice Dizzle - we can be fast and famous friends - think of the possibilities!

(Black sunshine shouldn't you be in bed - transubstantiating to your etheric form and preying on the warm red energy of the susceptible young male?)

Soul sucking at 1:15? I prefer 3am. It's an insult to the Trinity.

[DavidX]

than maybe you're commanding your infernal legions to do some nefarious yet bizarrely sexy task.

[Black Sunshine]

than maybe you're commanding your infernal legions to do some nefarious yet bizarrely sexy task.

More likely, but not true at the moment. Currently in the hot tub. But I needed to get another mojito, so you are blessed with a reply. Now go out and meet somebody!

[Inquartata]

Did someone say "hot tub"?


http://www.livevideo.com/video/F67BC...brown-s-c.aspx

[fencerchica]

Do you have any mainstream Catholic references? Something not rejected by the Vatican and mainstream Catholics?

Try this one:
http://conservation.catholic.org/background.htm

Reading comprehension skills, anyone? These are Catholics who are into conservation, not Catholics who are conservative, which was the original point of this sidebar discussion. You're the one who had his knickers in a twist that I argued conservative Christians (outside of the new crunchy-con movement, which I acknowledged) tend to be less friendly to environmentalism. And then you want me to support my argument by citing mainstream references?

[Sean Butler]

Reading comprehension skills, anyone? These are Catholics who are into conservation, not Catholics who are conservative, which was the original point of this sidebar discussion. You're the one who had his knickers in a twist that I argued conservative Christians (outside of the new crunchy-con movement, which I acknowledged) tend to be less friendly to environmentalism. And then you want me to support my argument by citing mainstream references?

I think it is a mistake to equate conservative Catholics and their opinions on the environment with those of conservative Christian Protestant denominations. A conservative Catholic is not neccessarily a political conservative by the definition we might give them here in the U.S. Conservative Catholicism is a theological and primarily liturgical belief that the earlier forms of worship are to be preferred over those things which changed since the Second Vatican Council in 1962. The conservative Catholic may have an opinion about the environment which coincides with the conservative right, but this is mainly personal opinion and aversion to the idea of making another god out of nature.

The movement within the U.S. to connect Christians with political conservatism was primarily spearheaded by the Evangelical denominations through the success of preachers like Jerry Fallwell and Pat Robertson. To the extent that Catholics enjoyed the likes of these guys, they may have been swayed by them politically as well.

[fencerchica]

I think it is a mistake to equate conservative Catholics and their opinions on the environment with those of conservative Christian Protestant denominations. A conservative Catholic is not neccessarily a political conservative by the definition we might give them here in the U.S. Conservative Catholicism is a theological and primarily liturgical belief that the earlier forms of worship are to be preferred over those things which changed since the Second Vatican Council in 1962. The conservative Catholic may have an opinion about the environment which coincides with the conservative right, but this is mainly personal opinion and aversion to the idea of making another god out of nature.

The movement within the U.S. to connect Christians with political conservatism was primarily spearheaded by the Evangelical denominations through the success of preachers like Jerry Fallwell and Pat Robertson. To the extent that Catholics enjoyed the likes of these guys, they may have been swayed by them politically as well.

Indeed, I fully agree with you that the movement to tie anti-environmentalism and other politically conservative agendas to a (conservative) Christian religious movement is spearheaded and very predominantly staffed by Evangelicals, as opposed to conservative Catholics.

However, I would argue with you that the reason why conservative Catholics don't account for a large part of the conservative politico-religious movement is due to a lack of numbers rather than a lack of interest. Most Americans who identify as Catholic are mainline or even relatively-to-very progressive, and conservative Catholics are a tiny, tiny minority when compared with the conservative Evangelical community.

Having said that, my experiences growing up in a household with upwards of half a dozen subscriptions to radically conservative Catholic publications and attending mass 2+ times weekly at a FSSP Tridentine parish indicate that conservative Catholics are ferociously anti-environmentalist and otherwise politically conservative, not merely liturgically conservative.

Anyway, returning to the main sidebar topic Jeff was right on in proposing James G. Watt as a prominent example of someone whose anti-environmentalism was fueled by conservative Christianity. And Watt's Dispensationalist co-religionists surely do account for a lot more anti-environmentalism than conservative Catholics, whom I merely cited as one example in response to Bayou Bum's skepticism. As I mentioned, Dispensationalists are anti-environmentalist because they feel that the Rapture is nearly upon us and there is no point to conserving anything -- in fact, conserving our natural resources reeks of skepticism of God's plan for the End Times.

[Sean Butler]

Indeed, I fully agree with you that the movement to tie anti-environmentalism and other politically conservative agendas to a (conservative) Christian religious movement is spearheaded and very predominantly staffed by Evangelicals, as opposed to conservative Catholics.

Yes, and these are on the decline even now. The Evangelical movement is dying in America. I think people are starting to understand that a religion cannot bind itself with a political party. Invariably the politcal party moves and shifts with the desires of the people. A religion must anchor itself in immutable truths or it isn't a religion at all, just another opinion. So either you have the "Evangelical Party" which would be so exclusionary as to never win, or you have a party which can't stay true to the principles of those who founded or championed it.

However, I would argue with you that the reason why conservative Catholics don't account for a large part of the conservative politico-religious movement is due to a lack of numbers rather than a lack of interest. Most Americans who identify as Catholic are mainline or even relatively-to-very progressive, and conservative Catholics are a tiny, tiny minority when compared with the conservative Evangelical community.

Having said that, my experiences growing up in a household with upwards of half a dozen subscriptions to radically conservative Catholic publications and attending mass 2+ times weekly at a FSSP Tridentine parish indicate that conservative Catholics are ferociously anti-environmentalist and otherwise politically conservative, not merely liturgically conservative.

I think really we should be saying traditional Catholics. Personally I haven't known any traditional Catholic groups (except maybe some real fringe groups) who would be called anti-environmentalists. Where you see hesitation and outright rejection of environmentalism by Christians is when certain folks take it too far. PETA for example with its elevation of animals so that they have rights comparable to human beings. Or the Swiss government with its Plant Rights legislation. Christians see all physical things as serving the wellbeing of people. To the extent that our exploitation of nature is detrimental to the health and even existence of people both now and in the future, certainly the Christian would have to agree that it's wrong. The Christian would never agree that a squirrel should have rights equal to a human being; this is taking things too far.

While I am sure that some Christian Dispensationalists do fall in line with the kind of thinking you attribute to Watt, I think it's more often that they have an intense skepticism which arises from organizations like PETA. As a result, they take a contrary stance nearly instinctively to the hard-left positions on the environment.

Personally I think that most people don't go to bed at night worrying about the plants and animals. It's just not that high on their priority list as modern human beings that it should be such a front and center issue. Most see the environmental discussion with a certain reserved distance, and where the discussion impinges upon their personal wellbeing, they get intensely reactionary about it. This is true for both sides of the debate. For the wealthy businessman like Watt, they react strongly to overly sentimental protection of plants and animals, for those whose children or jobs have been hurt by pollution or poor policies on the environment, they react strongly to the negligence and even criminal behavior of U.S. corporate greed.

[telkanuru]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL5WVecNdhk[/YOUTUBE]

[jeff]

Good points overall, and...

Where you see hesitation and outright rejection of environmentalism by Christians is when certain folks take it too far. PETA for example with its elevation of animals so that they have rights comparable to human beings

They have to get in line to oppose PETA! You don't have to be religious or fundamentalist to think that the PETA slogan "A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy" equivalency is nutty.

Or the Swiss government with its Plant Rights legislation.

Coupled with legislation to ensure that asparagus can't open a minaret...

[Bayou Bum]

As I mentioned, Dispensationalists are anti-environmentalist because they feel that the Rapture is nearly upon us and there is no point to conserving anything -- in fact, conserving our natural resources reeks of skepticism of God's plan for the End Times.

Is this your opinion or based on some fact other than your personal belief? What about Jesus coming back to rule for a thousand years? Won't they still need the planet to be around for that long and above water?

I would also like to point out that there is a big difference between an environmentalist and someone who believes in global warming (or climate change when evidence opposes global warming). Almost all Christians I know are strong environmentalists who believe in taking care of earth's resources, recycling, cleaning up the planet, etc.; but most know that the global warming (or climate change) scam is just a ploy by socialist for more government control and redistribution of wealth.

[Sean Butler]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL5WVecNdhk

That's an interesting bit of contumely. Are you posting this because you believe the content of this man's emotional rant?

[fencerchica]

Is this your opinion or based on some fact other than your personal belief? What about Jesus coming back to rule for a thousand years? Won't they still need the planet to be around for that long and above water?

You wanted a concrete example of religious conservatives being against environmentalism, I gave you one (and so did Jeff). Go sit down now. If you want an after-school assignment, I recommend American Theocracy, by Kevin Philips (also author of The Emerging Republican Majority (1969), in which he discusses the anti-environmentalism and anarchic anti-goverment leanings of the Dominionist movement.

I would also like to point out that there is a big difference between an environmentalist and someone who believes in global warming (or climate change when evidence opposes global warming). Almost all Christians I know are strong environmentalists who believe in taking care of earth's resources, recycling, cleaning up the planet, etc.; but most know that the global warming (or climate change) scam is just a ploy by socialist for more government control and redistribution of wealth.

I agree that being an environmentalist doesn't necessarily require that you believe in climate change. What of it? Also, lucky you, your Christian friends are perhaps among the "crunchy cons" I acknowledged earlier. But the conservative Christians I grew up among certainly were not, and neither are James G. Watt and Solange Hertz.

[fencerchica]

Yes, and these are on the decline even now. The Evangelical movement is dying in America. I think people are starting to understand that a religion cannot bind itself with a political party. Invariably the politcal party moves and shifts with the desires of the people. A religion must anchor itself in immutable truths or it isn't a religion at all, just another opinion. So either you have the "Evangelical Party" which would be so exclusionary as to never win, or you have a party which can't stay true to the principles of those who founded or championed it.

For all our sakes, I hope that you are right, but the nature of the ideological purges going on in the core of the Republican Party make me concerned that this might not be the case. Also, part of the rise of movement conservatism has involved a willingness on the part of industry and the varying branches of evangelical Christianity (and traditionalist Catholicism) to temporarily set aside some of their differences in order to achieve their mutually held political goals. In other words, I wonder if Christian conservatives are both more political and more wiling to get along with each other within that frame than you give them credit (so to speak) for.

I think really we should be saying traditional Catholics. Personally I haven't known any traditional Catholic groups (except maybe some real fringe groups) who would be called anti-environmentalists. Where you see hesitation and outright rejection of environmentalism by Christians is when certain folks take it too far. PETA for example with its elevation of animals so that they have rights comparable to human beings. Or the Swiss government with its Plant Rights legislation. Christians see all physical things as serving the wellbeing of people. To the extent that our exploitation of nature is detrimental to the health and even existence of people both now and in the future, certainly the Christian would have to agree that it's wrong. The Christian would never agree that a squirrel should have rights equal to a human being; this is taking things too far.

I think bringing in PETA is a bit of a straw man. I doubt if ever in my life have I met a single individual who doesn't despise PETA, and I know a lot of people with environmentalist beliefs, as well as people who believe in strong animal rights legislation (such as outlawing CAFOs, etc). I think it would be a fairer and more representative example to, say, discuss whether or not conservative Christians would support banning logging roads in national parks, or whether they would support suspending logging operations to protect endangered species, etc.

While I am sure that some Christian Dispensationalists do fall in line with the kind of thinking you attribute to Watt, I think it's more often that they have an intense skepticism which arises from organizations like PETA. As a result, they take a contrary stance nearly instinctively to the hard-left positions on the environment.

For the wealthy businessman like Watt, they react strongly to overly sentimental protection of plants and animals, for those whose children or jobs have been hurt by pollution or poor policies on the environment, they react strongly to the negligence and even criminal behavior of U.S. corporate greed.

I think you're giving Watt, at least, vastly too much credit for acting in good faith. I'm sure there must be some businessmen, somewhere, who act in good faith and are frustrated by unneccessary inefficiencies of bureaucracy with respect to environmental protection... but I'm also sure that Watt was no such innocent.

[jeff]

Watt banned the Beach Boys from doing a concert on the National Mall, and replaced them with Wayne Newton! He goes STRAIGHT TO HELL!

He had to quit after his "two blacks, a cripple, and a Jew" comment. In later life he was indicted for perjury and copped a plea, and said "If the troubles from environmentalists cannot be solved in the jury box or at the ballot box, perhaps the cartridge box should be used."

what a creep.

[Bayou Bum]

But the conservative Christians I grew up among certainly were not, and neither are James G. Watt and Solange Hertz.

I guess that explains your radical views. You could use a little deprogramming.

[telkanuru]

Heee. The dittohead thinks you could use some deprogramming, jeff.

You should get right on that.