tall vs short in fencing

[venus_demilo]

I am currently very frustrated with my height, I am only 5'3", I am having a hell of a hard time fencing someone who is 6'4". I watch my distance but he gets me everytime with this super long reach/ lunge long reach. I do not know what to do? Any good tactics, techniques to help me compensate for my shortness?

[jkormann]

1 - Watch your distance. Gauge how close you can get, so on his attack you have enough time to retreat. Keep that as your minimum safe distance.
2 - Talk with your coach about infighting.
3 - Keep fencing.

[Sildar]

If your lack of height and reach are in due to you lacking arms and a head and being made of marble, I don't know what to tell you.

If that's not the case, I recommend attacks in countertime or second intention. Basically you won't have to do as much work if you let the taller fencer cover the distance for you.

Also, make sure that you learn to use what reach you do have to the greatest degree possible; some of the shorter fencers stop using their full lunge because they just assume they can't reach, and compound their disadvantage that way.

Probably the best thing to focus on would be footwork; you'll need fast feet to take advantage of the openings taller fencers sometimes provide. Use distance traps to trick tall folks into coming into your range, then nail them.

Hope this helps...

[swordsen]

infight infight infight. get inside his tip and tear him up. It is a game of timing. (but then all of fencing is a game of timing)

[The0ne]

Yea, I think a long lunge is the most important thing, when a tall person comes up and sees a short opponent he usually thinks something like "no problem here, no need to use footwork!"
Also to piss off tall people, flick to 8

[MikeHarm]

Your weakness can be your advantage. I agree with the earlier post, develop your countertime game and set him up whenever e reaches for you. It sounds like he has a habit you can exploit.

[D'Artagnan1673]

Tall people: Fence at distance.

Short people: Infight.

As a short fencer, once you get in close, you will have significant advantages over a tall fencer. Stay out of distance, then I'd say you are playing to his advantages, something you never wish to do.

[darius]

...of course, then there are those tall folks who *like* infighting.

Watching Sabine Bau fence is fun!

darius

[epeefencer74]

Originally posted by darius
...of course, then there are those tall folks who *like* infighting.

Watching Sabine Bau fence is fun!

darius

Ah but being tall means the angulation for infighting is a little more difficult.

[a517dogg]

In epee you can hit the hand... short people can still counterattack if you can move your feet fast enough. or take his blade. people with long arms usually can't put as much power on their blade, so short people will usually have an advantage in strength which you can use to keep their blade on an attack or parry riposte.

[swordsen]

Originally posted by a517dogg
people with long arms usually can't put as much power on their blade, so short people will usually have an advantage in strength which you can use to keep their blade on an attack or parry riposte.

Now that I would have to disagree with. Tall and long armed does not mean weak in any way.

And to a previous poster, yes, tall people can infight. But it is probably your best bet if you are alot shorter. (at least until you become more experienced and learn a wider variety of things to do)

[Chris]

[ I am currently very frustrated with my height, I am only 5'3", I am having a hell of a hard time fencing someone who is 6'4". I watch my distance but he gets me everytime with this super long reach/ lunge long reach. I do not know what to do? Any good tactics, techniques to help me compensate for my shortness? ]

V,
Several people made some 'wise-cracks' - you get that, somtimes...
Several people said some good things, but I can see where some further explanation may be helpful to you; here's my 2 cents' worth (you can pay me later. )

1. Timing is always an issue; when you are close enough so one of you can (maybe) hit the other, one issue is that who physically (or sometimes, mentally) commits to an action is often surrendering inititive to the opponent.

This is somewhat dependent on perceptual skills, and technical skills:
If you are a beginner, you will take more time to complete an action because it will take you longer to recognize what you are seeing, and associate a response, and to actually execute the move (as it will probably be 'bigger' than it needs to be.)

Additionally, people who are quite experienced often (not always) execute 2 or 3 blade moves, based on 1 decision, eliminating some decision time.

So, at SOME point, people that are WAY more experienced than you will SEEM incredibly fast, even though, physically, they may not be.

(technically, since taller people have longer nerves in their longer arms and legs, it takes just a little longer for the nerve impulses to reach the destinations.)
2. Distance

Someone said: tall people - fence at distance; short people infight, which is a good rule of thumb, but let's break it down, a little, and this applies to everyone:

For ease of visualization, think straight lunges and start at the distance of the en garde lines; the reason the are that far apart is that it (was thought to be) so far apart that if both people lunge, they cannot hit each other. So at this distance, call it 'zone A', you are relatively safe.

As you get closer, and closer, eventually, (usually) one person can hit, and the other cannot; 'zone B'
If you are taller, this is probably how you want it; if you are shorter, this is probably NOT how you want it; you probably want either to get closer, or farther away, and as fast as possible!

Closer still, and both people can hit the other directly*; zone 'C' When you are shorter, this is a better place to be. *(OK, if the height difference gets over 3 feet, or so, this zone gets pretty small.)

BUT, as a short person, there is yet, another more favorable place to be: 'Inside the point'. (zone 'D') This means that you, and your target area, are closer to your opponent than their point is, and for them to hit you will (probably) take 2 actions. Meanwhile, if you have executed a successful defense, and NOT gotten hit, up to this point, you may often find that your opponent is still in front of your point, and you can hit them in one action, which is usually faster than 2. (note that this works less well in sabre.)

Additionally, should you get so close, and MISS, you may find that getting farther away often just gives your opponent another chance to hit you, so passing is often preferable, but don't be too quick to just run to the other end of the strip, that often gives them a chance to hit you in the back, as well; just as you can't put your elbow in your ear, it's hardest to hit someone who is right behind your weapon arm. (though with enough practice, it's not impossible - it's just that it has to be executed in a single move started before you pass.

So get yourself thinking of the distance in terms of these 'zones' based on who can hit who, with 1 or 2 actions.
(including your feet).

Of course a lot of fencing occurs farther away than advance lunge, but you have to start somewhere...

3. Manipulating and Pedipulating Distance

So as the shorter fencer, if 'Far Away' is OK, and 'Close' is where you CAN hit, you need to learn some techniques to get you from 'A' to 'C', spending as little time in 'B' as possible.

There are two ways to do this:
1. Get your opponent to commit to stepping forward. (various combinations of multiple advances, retreats, and half steps, which are usually learned better by practice in context of an opponent.)

2. (Attempt to) cloud your opponent's perception of the distance by altering stance or guard, and defensive reaction distance. Note these can come with trade-offs (otherwise known as risks), because you can't be sure your opponent is fooled.

A classic example; you might fence for while with your arm extended quite a bit, and as you move about; beating, and derobing, gradually bending your arm: if you opponenent is measuring distance from the point, rather than your body, you will draw them a bit closer, which could work for you, or not. Likewise, it might work on someone once, it might work on someone else a lot; it might not work one someone else at all.

You can acheive a similar result by narrowing the width of your stance, as the range of any forward step, or lunge is based on the location of the back foot, yet this bit of information is a little harder to discern, and there are often other distractions.

If you have read this far, let me just finish by saying that the thing I like best about fencing is, no matter how big, or how tall, or how strong they are, in the end, they are trying to get at YOU; and you are always there! And there's usually more of them to hit!

Keep it up, and Good Luck!

[Sabresque]

As a 5 foot 1 fencer, I know how you feel. My one big thing to say is... Footwork, footwork, footwork. I can't stress it more. FOOTWORK! Longer lunges too... You need to use all the reach you have, and more. Keep working at things, they get faster as you work. Don't dispair, usually people like that use their height as a crutch, that's all that keeps them winning and they don't change for a long while because that's what workd for them at first. Develop your skill and sooner or later, you'll start beating him with your mind instead of him beating you with his height.

[I see dead people]

If you are a foilist, there shouldn't be any problem. In fact being short is advantageous, or at least you have more than enough compensation for the height difference.

If you are an epeeist, you should just give up. he he. Switch to sabre or foil.

[magma]

i see your point about the epee, but i don't know if i can agree with that, she sounds like a beginner, what do you expect, it may be lack of experience, how long has he fenced, and how long have you fenced, keep it in mind. the next thing is distance, speed up, keep your weight appropriate, what's your age, what's his age, learn to retreat parry reposte, very fast as soon as you see his arm up, or beat attack. ..
sounds like a plan, but i'm sure there are many other tactics you can work on. plus the psychological thing.....


anyone know of any tapes out there.

[nahouw]

Originally posted by I see dead people
If you are a foilist, there shouldn't be any problem. In fact being short is advantageous, or at least you have more than enough compensation for the height difference.

If you are an epeeist, you should just give up. he he. Switch to sabre or foil.

Nonsense! Because you are short, it only means that you just have to be more technically correct in your form, and have excellent footwork. You need to hit and get out fast.

As a matter of fact, if you have very good technique, excellent point control, sense of timing and footwork, and can recognize the right (most advantageous) opportunities to hit, you will be OK -- you just have to outsmart them. For that matter, having all of the above, epee will in fact be the easiest weapon -- many epeeists rely far too much on their reach advantage and are open to hits to the wrist and toe -- you just have to learn to set them up for wrist and toe touches.

Donna Stone, at 5'4" came in 5th at the 1989 World Championships in Epee; last year's World Championships finalists included Hyun from Korea (1st) and Branza from Romania (3rd) and both of these girls are short.

For that matter, Ben Atkins has won National Championships, and he is also short.

Keep practicing correctly, and it will come.

[Prometheus]

No matter how tall you are there is the same distance between your wrist and your bellguard as your opponents.
(eppe)

No matter how tall you are, parry repost, attack to prep, a counterattack in time or a one light hit will get the point.
(Foil, Saber)

Fencing is about adapting your game to your individual abilities and strengths.

It may be frustrating to have someone who is taller perform a conterattack and jump out of the way, but no more so then when someone who is shorter rushes inside comfortable range and counterattacks.

There are some elite fencers who are on the smaller side to say the least. Cross and Leahy come to mind.

Stay the couse and best of luck.

[Chris]

Originally posted by nahouw
Nonsense! Because you are short, it only means that you just have to be more technically correct in your form, and have excellent footwork. You need to hit and get out fast.

As a matter of fact, if you have very good technique, excellent point control, sense of timing and footwork, and can recognize the right (most advantageous) opportunities to hit, you will be OK -- you just have to outsmart them. For that matter, having all of the above, epee will in fact be the easiest weapon -- many epeeists rely far too much on their reach advantage and are open to hits to the wrist and toe -- you just have to learn to set them up for wrist and toe touches.

Donna Stone, at 5'4" came in 5th at the 1989 World Championships in Epee; last year's World Championships finalists included Hyun from Korea (1st) and Branza from Romania (3rd) and both of these girls are short.

For that matter, Ben Atkins has won National Championships, and he is also short.

Keep practicing correctly, and it will come.

I pretty much agree here, and with Prometheus, as well: although it does get harder for every inch of advantage they have, nahouw makes it sound like you have to be a champion to defeat someone with a significant height advantage.

I would like to concur with Prometheus that each epee is limited to (i.e. supposed to be) the same length, so each can reach the other's target at the same time. Granted, the hand/wrist touch can be pretty hard on some of those really skinny, tall people, but technically, this moderates the height advantage, , which is not true in foil.

Also, I would like to point out that (I beleive) Ben Atkins won Men's Foil, and Men's Epee in the same year, and that John Normile, also under 6 foot tall, has won Men's Epee (at least) twice.

My advice to the original poster is to practice lunge/hit wrist with redoublement/hit to arm-elbow; and parry riposte with advance, ( as well as retreat; parry riposte.)

Keep it epee!

[jeff]

Definitely don't give up: Witold Woyda was an Olympic foil champion, and I don't think he's above 5'6"". Venus doesn't say what weapon is involved here, but the short fencer has similar strategies in each (BTW: Venus-the-statue has a head, only missing the arms.)

I'm vertically challenged too, and I second Sabresque's advice: footwork is the key. Develop lunge, advance lunge, and balestra lunge combinations with speed, variety, and distance. If you're attacking from long distance, pick up the blade with a beat or other taking to bridge the gap while moving forward. Keep moving and shifting your distance when you're not attacking - don't let yourself get caught in that danger zone where the taller person can reach you but you can't reach him. Move!

Second intention is helpful: you can attack to draw a riposte and make the counter riposte, or draw a stop thrust and pick it up with a pris-de-fer (make sure you clear the blade). If you can get the other guy to close the distance for you it makes your job easier. If you can develop a strong defensive game, then all the better - let him come to you.

I don't think the infighting advice is that useful - the whole problem is how to get close enough to hit the taller fencer in the first place. If you manage to get close enough to infight without already being hit, you could/should have hit the other guy aready. Of course, use it if you manage to get close, but don't count on it as a primary tactic. Some tall guys are very good at this too, as has already been mentioned.

It's not easy - but train for it and it can be done.

[venus_demilo]

Thanks for all the advice. I have no intentions on giving up I just dont get upset about it anymore. I have been working on improving my footwork and second intentions. Being a newbie in epee I am practicing, practicing....bruised but not beaten