Switch Fencing?

[Chris]

Originally posted by epeemike81
On the contrary, I KNOW there are switchers in USFA. I have not, however, ever met a successful one.

But the point is that if the best endorsement you can come up with is "well, I guess if you aren't looking for results, there's no reason NOT to try it...." then it probably isn't very helpful to your fencing.

-m

Mike is a pretty well informed (at least, fencing-wise) guy who sees what is going on out on the US national scene, and he is correct there aren't many , (probably any) people fencing both hands at the national level.


That being said, it because there aren't many people practicing with both hands. In my 25 years of fencing I have only met 2 people that did this.
If Mike's definition of success, is to earn a 'C', I beleive Mr. Sampon (sr.) did; although the real question should be, did he do it with BOTH hands!?
(this I do not have any idea about).

The other person I know is currently practicing, and competing with both hands (he is very concerned with asymetrical muscle development), but 'the jury is still out', since he has only been competing for about two years; and he also competes all three weapons, which helped him develop, for a while, but now, I think this is slowing him down: he does have an 'E' classification in all 3, and does pay attention to what hand he used when he got them; he is on the cusp of being a 'D' in epee: unfortunately, the last tournement we went to, the 2nd 'B' didn't make the 8, so my eliminating my friend in the 8 left him with another notch in the 'E' classification.

As per the original posting, in USFA and FIE, there's no problem switching hands between bouts, provided you have the weapons AND a second underarm plastron to wear: you can suit-up with a body cord down each arm: my friend does this all the time. I am sure it would feel a litttle weird, at first...

You MAY switch hands DURING the bout, only if (in the opinion of whatever passes as medical authority at the event), you have sustained an injury which makes switching necessary. I am not sure whather or not this is, by definition, required to be affecting the hand or arm. I.e. Although an argument could be made, I am not sure that, if you sprained an ankle, you would be allowed to switch hands.

Any thought/comments on that?

Have fun!
Fence!

[Chris]

Originally posted by whtouche
Caroline Purcell fenced with her offhand for at least a little while after she broke her main hand (I'm not sure if it was left or right)
Other than that I agree with your assessment that you should be completely dedicated to one hand. If fencing takes so long to master why would you want to spend twice as much time to get half the benefit?

[snip]

I personally like fencing lefties and I don't see how people have all the difficulty with them.

Also to continue the theme of scattered and disorganized thoughts, I believe caroline purcell only built up her skill in her off hand when she broke her main hand and was forced to or be sidelined, I don't believe she made it a regular training practice.

Well, first of all, the fact that M' Purcell, switched, and still got 6th in a national (though not USFA) event, should say something about the transfer of learning: Fencing is as much done with the mind, and the eye, as with the body; a fencer who fences one handed will not progress at twice the rate of a 'switcher'.

probably you have learned how to defeat lefthanded fencers by learning to adapt, and modify the same techniques and moves you use on right handers: which requires practice with that particular hand, but ALSO relies on your ability to perceive distance, percieve opponent's moves, and your mobility, which are all somewhat less dependent on fencing with the particular hand.

Don't get me wrong, I don't do this (except 'on a lark'), but if someone wants to do it , people shouldn't give them any difficulty about it.

Mainly, I think we all know that most people who try fencing, find the challenge of fencing with one hand sufficient, and the rewards so meager, that they quit after their first course; (and the attrition doesn't stop there) so you aren't going to find many people with patience, and determination, and extra cash to bother really doing it with both hands.

THough I DO recommend doing some footwork 'the other way' so your pants fit better!

Have Fun!
Fence!

[jeff]

I know one fencer who at least used to switch hands. Maurice Kamhi was an A-rated foilist in NY when competing some years back. He fenced lefty with newbie kids until the newbie developed some skill - then he would switch to right hand and pulverize the kid all over again. :-) In competition, he strictly fenced right-handed. He uses Italian foils, so moving it from one hand to the other wasn't a problem.

I imagine that if there was a substantial advantage to switching hands it would have been widely adopted long ago. As has been pointed out, few people are sufficiently ambidextrous to be equally capable both ways, and the time spent trying to develop the "off" side could be better spent training the dominant side. For fun sometimes, or in case of injury, okay, but it hasn't been a winning strategy. I don't think there's much of a history of people switching hands in combat or duel situations either, except in case of injury.

[jkormann]

Jeff brings up a rather intriguing point: What is a rationelle for switching hands?

I can think of two:
1 - Tactical / Strategic
2 - "Balancing"

If you know that an opponent is sufficiently weak against a (sake of discussion) Lefty and you feel the odds are in your favor, then you fence him Lefty. It can give you an advantage b/c they won't know which handed you'll use. If you're only Right-handed fencer, then that's one less thing they can worry about before the bout. During a bout, it's pretty much moot. You're already using that hand, so they know what's going on.

I would define "Balancing" as getting your off-hand reflexes and muscles as developed as your on-hand reflexes and muscles. Plus side there is you won't have the off-balance look (one leg and arm larger than the other).

The first reason would make the most sense combat-wise, and the other asthetically.

I'm still a believer in switching hands just to keep my skills going. I'm not so sure about the arguement, "if you spent 50% for each side, then you're missing 50% of your training." As was noted above, the mental concepts *should* transfer over. It's the physical concepts that need to be worked on or fine-tuned per side.

-Joseph

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by jkormann
Jeff brings up a rather intriguing point: What is a rationelle for switching hands?

I can think of two:
1 - Tactical / Strategic
2 - "Balancing"

If you know that an opponent is sufficiently weak against a (sake of discussion) Lefty and you feel the odds are in your favor, then you fence him Lefty. It can give you an advantage b/c they won't know which handed you'll use. If you're only Right-handed fencer, then that's one less thing they can worry about before the bout. During a bout, it's pretty much moot. You're already using that hand, so they know what's going on.

I would define "Balancing" as getting your off-hand reflexes and muscles as developed as your on-hand reflexes and muscles. Plus side there is you won't have the off-balance look (one leg and arm larger than the other).

The first reason would make the most sense combat-wise, and the other asthetically.

I'm still a believer in switching hands just to keep my skills going. I'm not so sure about the arguement, "if you spent 50% for each side, then you're missing 50% of your training." As was noted above, the mental concepts *should* transfer over. It's the physical concepts that need to be worked on or fine-tuned per side.

-Joseph

The problem is that physical and mental skills develop in tandem. Caroline was able to use her distance, timing etc. to get a good result (note: a significantly worse result than expected. she shouldn't have even been challenged in that competition, and instead placed sixth). However, that distance and timing was developed in tandem with her physical skills. had she been practicing 50/50, her distance and timing wouldn't have come along as well because her physical skills on either side wouldn't be good enough to let them.

-m

[WJM]

Joe Biebel, WI division. B rated in Foil, former US international fencer. As I understand it, injury forces him to fence lefty most of the time, but he's even stronger righty. He may not be nationally ranked on the senior standings anymore (however 4th vet-50 standings, finished 3rd at the OH NAC) but he re-earns that B every year.

I don't think there's any question amongst serious USFA fencers that to focus on one hand over the other is easier and more effective than trying to do both, but many coaches use drills that demand fencers do basic actions from both sides...Michael Marx teaches lunges both righty and lefty to even out leg development in students, to prevent one side being overdeveloped on one side and causing possible poor body-image as it apparently has in at least one of our international level fencers he mentioned. I use lunges from both sides to help flexibility and strength in the muscles/joints of the off side leg. But I PERSONALLY believe that there isn't a great deal of value in teaching much in the way of hand drills, footwork for the off side unless an individual has a real interest or reason. There simply isn't that much time to spare. I have had some students who have a desire to fence both sides, and do so of their own accord. Other than the occational problem with trying to switch DURING a touch (requiring a simle reminder of the rules), it certainly doesn't seem to hurt anybody involved.

[neevel]

Originally posted by WJM
Joe Biebel, WI division. B rated in Foil, former US international fencer. As I understand it, injury forces him to fence lefty most of the time, but he's even stronger righty. He may not be nationally ranked on the senior standings anymore (however 4th vet-50 standings, finished 3rd at the OH NAC) but he re-earns that B every year.

It's actually the other way around, Will. Joe's naturally a lefty and fenced that way for almost all of his career, but there was a spell a couple of years ago where he decided to give his left side (and the chronic tendonitis problems it was having) a break and fence righty for a year. He's now back to fencing lefty. While Joe did make considerable improvement as a righty over that year he tried it, he's not nearly as capable as he is left handed, and shifted back to fencing lefty when he began planning to start competing on the national veterans' circuit. (During his time as a righty, he commented on how he screwed-up the initial seeding of tournaments, since his right-handed fencing was not up to the level of his rating).

To comment on the general thread topic, the whole lefty/righty thing is only a bugaboo to relatively novice fencers. For a more experienced fencer, handedness is just one of many factors (height, speed, preference for offence or defence, known strength or weakness at a particular style of play, etc.) that goes into determining how you fence an opponent-- it's just not that big a deal on it's own. For me, a sudden, dramatic change of tactics on the part of an opponent (say, from playing a slow, cautious parry-riposte game to a fast-off-the-line attacking game) would require a much larger adjustment on my part than a change of handedness. The statistical over-representation of left-handed fencers at the top is probably much more the effect of more lefties sticking with it through the beginner level, where their handedness does give them an edge over other beginners.

Given how long it can take to develop truly superb motor skills, and that even if one could fence full time there are only 24 hours in a day and 365 days in a year, it simply makes more sense to someone wanting to compete to the best of their abilities to focus on their dominant hand-- you'll develop more quickly, and the limit of your abilities will be higher. That's not to say that someone who's not primarily focused on competitive results and would like to pursue symettrical physical development and the challenge of learing something with their non-dominant side wouldn't be able to achieve all their goals by learning both left and right handed.

-Dave

[Inquartata]

Heh, leave to you to squish the mountain we made of this one back down to a molehill, Dave!

[drayke]

There is some kinestetic benefit to the dominant side when exercising the non-dominant side. Because the non-dom side is not proficient, it requires specfic thought to action sequences which can help the dominant side then recognize and correct the mechanics of an action. This works if first exercise the dominant side, then perform the same actions on the non-dom side and then return to the dominant side.

I learned this while in sports massage training and in the massage therapy realm in particular, Feldenkries has some very good patterning exercises that make sue of dom/non-dom actions.

[Methix]

There is a B rated epee/sabre fencer out of New Mexico by the name of Brad Baker that fences both hands fairly evenly. If you've ever seen him, he's pretty recognizable with long curly gray hair and god-awful striped socks. Great guy though, fun to fence and fun to talk to.

[oiuyt]

It's gotta be the name.... :)

-B :)