Switch Fencing?

[sean]

Originally posted by epeemike81
Wow. just think how good he could be if he spent ALL of his time working on one side.

-m

So are you saying that all switch hitters in baseball should concentrate on the side of the plate they're best at? regardless of opponent?

Brad's stonger with his right hand, but there are certain people (like me) who suck against lefties. Similarly, there are certain lefties who, though good, don't fare so well against other lefties. He judges which hand he thinks gives him the greater advantage and uses it. It's a choice I don't have (I'm not ambidextrous...). I just don't envy him the web of body cords he has to wear!

In terms of whether a truly right dominant or truly left dominant fencer should work too hard at fencing with both sides... only if they can write equally well with their left hand as their right. Or their dominant arm is broken or some such. Otherwise, you and I agree completely. They're wasting their time. There is some benefit in terms of snpine alignment and evenness of muscle tone to doing some footwork with each side, but not a lot of help in building fencing skill.

[jkormann]

Originally posted by epeemike81
Especially on this board which is, of course, dedicated to discussion of modern fencing, not SCA.

-m

This board is called "General Fencing > Fencing Discussion". Nothing in that about "USFA Fencing only" or "Modern Fencing only".

I will agree that it's the rare person who can switch fencing in the FIE, you won't know if it improves your game until you try. I wasn't keen on it when I first tried it, but now I think it's not a real bad thing. It gets you into the mind-set of the 'other side' opponent. Whole new tactics and opportunities suddenly arise!

Who was it that said, "To defeat your enemy, you must first get to know them."

-Joseph

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by sean
So are you saying that all switch hitters in baseball should concentrate on the side of the plate they're best at? regardless of opponent?

That is a very different situation. First of all, it is discernably easier to hit a lefty from the right side of the plate, whereas it is NOT discernably easier to score touches in fencing from one side or the other. In addition, yes, I DO think that many switch hitters shouldn't. Jason Varitek, for example, is a discernably better hitter from the left side, and thus should probably stick with that.

Brad's stonger with his right hand, but there are certain people (like me) who suck against lefties. Similarly, there are certain lefties who, though good, don't fare so well against other lefties. He judges which hand he thinks gives him the greater advantage and uses it. It's a choice I don't have (I'm not ambidextrous...). I just don't envy him the web of body cords he has to wear!

But consider if he spent all his time practicing with one hand. He would probably STILL be able to beat those people, and would probably be able to beat some of the people that he can't right now. While spending half your time on each hand will help you against the people who can't deal with lefties, spending all or your time on one hand will help you against ALL people.

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by jkormann
This board is called "General Fencing > Fencing Discussion". Nothing in that about "USFA Fencing only" or "Modern Fencing only".

check out the clubs section. do you see any non-USFA clubs? look back through the news posts which Craig frequently posts. when is the last one that was about any type of fencing other than modern? Look, you can discuss whatever type of fencing you want, I'm just warning you that on this board people will tend to assume (reasonably so) that you are referring to modern fencing.

I will agree that it's the rare person who can switch fencing in the FIE, you won't know if it improves your game until you try. I wasn't keen on it when I first tried it, but now I think it's not a real bad thing. It gets you into the mind-set of the 'other side' opponent. Whole new tactics and opportunities suddenly arise!

see my previous response to Sean. What new tactics?

Who was it that said, "To defeat your enemy, you must first get to know them."

very true. however, this simply means being able to analyze what your opponent is doing.

-m

[jkormann]

sigh..

Originally posted by epeemike81
check out the clubs section. do you see any non-USFA clubs? look back through the news posts which Craig frequently posts. when is the last one that was about any type of fencing other than modern? Look, you can discuss whatever type of fencing you want, I'm just warning you that on this board people will tend to assume (reasonably so) that you are referring to modern fencing.

And I understand the general myopic vision some people have, hence I use the term 'SCA fencing...' to distinguish. As for the listing of clubs, I'm sure that the SCA folks wouldn't mind having their practices listed.

see my previous response to Sean. What new tactics?

Try this at your club: find a lefty and fence them dry using your left hand. You'll notice that their entire flank opens up (like it does in a rightly-righty situation).

This is why, in SCA, I've noticed people who aren't 'injured' switching hands to match their opponnent. It opens the available target.

Within FIE, if you're coming up against someone who's very strong against righties, but is weak against lefties, it would be a tactical gain to fence them lefty.

very true. however, this simply means being able to analyze what your opponent is doing.

-m

And that's what fencing is all about. It's just a matter of placing the analysis into your training plan instead of on the strip.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by jkormann
sigh..

And I understand the general myopic vision some people have, hence I use the term 'SCA fencing...' to distinguish. As for the listing of clubs, I'm sure that the SCA folks wouldn't mind having their practices listed.

And yet they aren't. Why not? because this site is dedicated to modern fencing! hence my point.

Try this at your club: find a lefty and fence them dry using your left hand. You'll notice that their entire flank opens up (like it does in a rightly-righty situation).

On the other hand, the strategies which I normally use against lefties would be useless. As you note, those are NOT new strategies, but rather what you are noting is that same handed v. off handed have different strategies. This is hardly news, nor do I need to fence off handed to realize it. Also, if I switched hands as you suggest, I would very likely lose, regardless of what target I could see open up.

This is why, in SCA, I've noticed people who aren't 'injured' switching hands to match their opponnent. It opens the available target.

Though I still doubt it is necessarily getting them the advantages they think it is, I am not going to dispute your opinion on SCA fencing. First of all, I don't have any experience with it, and secondly, I frankly don't care.

Within FIE, if you're coming up against someone who's very strong against righties, but is weak against lefties, it would be a tactical gain to fence them lefty.

A very small tactical gain which is easily surpassed by the advantages of using all of your practice time to concentrate on one hand.

And that's what fencing is all about. It's just a matter of placing the analysis into your training plan instead of on the strip.

Exactly! my analysis of training is that it is more useful to get as good as I can with one hand than half that good with each.

-m

[jkormann]

Originally posted by epeemike81
And yet they aren't. Why not? because this site is dedicated to modern fencing! hence my point.

I'd be interested to hear from the web-master if only FIE Fencers are welcome here.

--snip--

-m

We appear to be at a point where we agree to disagree on this point.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by jkormann
I'd be interested to hear from the web-master if only FIE Fencers are welcome here.

Whoa! Don't put words in my mouth! I never said that only FIE Fencers are welcome here, merely that since it is a board dedicated to modern fencing, if you just say "fencing" with no modifiers, I and many others will assume that you mean modern fencing.

You are welcome to post whatever you want here, and have whatever discussions you want.

-m

[jkormann]

Originally posted by epeemike81
Whoa! Don't put words in my mouth! I never said that only FIE Fencers are welcome here, merely that since it is a board dedicated to modern fencing, if you just say "fencing" with no modifiers, I and many others will assume that you mean modern fencing.

You are welcome to post whatever you want here, and have whatever discussions you want.

-m

Then don't make such statements.

Seriously, have you ever tried using your weapon in your 'off-hand'?

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by jkormann
Then don't make such statements.

I didn't make such statements as you were implying I did.

Seriously, have you ever tried using your weapon in your 'off-hand'?

yeah, but the visconti is significantly less comfortable in the off hand.

-m

[135711]

sca fencers have posted here for as long as i've been here, but, it's like: fencer beware, whatever side of the piste you're on, because the sca' fencers are theatre, while the fie's are competetitve, and that should tell you a little something: but, there is hope, because some of the competetive fencers are theatrical too, especiallyl the saber fencers.
[opps! I told!]

[MikeHarm]

I tried training at a local SCA based fencing club recently. It was interesting but wasn't right for me. They would be acting like they're fencing with standard right of way rules but next thing you know they start doing stuff like grabbing your weapon with the offhand, jumping off the strip and lunging and saying its their touch even though they were off strip when they started their lunge, turning their shoulder or even completely turning their back while ya fence, arguing that you should of stopped if they popped ya before your riposte landed after successfully parrying them etc etc. They have a lot of fun with their fencing but it seemed like a good way to get a lot of red cardable habits quick if you're focused on competing under USFA rules.

[D'Artagnan1673]

I didn't care for the SCA style myself. I like the structured nature of fencing vs. their anything goes attitude. A well trained fencer, esp. an epeeist, could have a field day against many of their fencers.

There is another consideration. I understand that many of the SCA groups fence with the schlager blades. These blades are much heavier and cannot perform many of the actions that our lighter epee and foil blades can perform. In that case, the epeeist would have to learn to adjust tactics and blade movements to offset their heavier weapons. I say that an epeeist using a dry epee could do extremely well just "fencing" an equally trained SCA duelist. The epeeist would not necessarily have to resort to the hand parrying or anything like that. A light weight small sword was light enough that stesso tempo (sp?) was not necessary or rendered useless. As I remeber, disengages work wonders against SCA fencers. The ones I fenced were reactionary and you could make their blades dance. I personally prefer to stick with fencing. Not necessarily modern fencing, but fencing in general.

Once again I ask is their any scientific proof that switching hands in either baseball or fencing has any significant advantages or disadvantages over being strictly a single hand hitter or fencer?

[FHPyro4L]

Whoa! Down boys. That was the most respectful argument of two people at each other's throats that I've ever witnessed. Quite impressive.

[achilleus]

Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673
Once again I ask is their any scientific proof that switching hands in either baseball or fencing has any significant advantages or disadvantages over being strictly a single hand hitter or fencer?

As for fencing, no. But whenever anyone asks, I always think of what my first coach said:

'Learn to fence with one hand, then when you've got that down, we'll talk about teaching you to fence with the other.'

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673
Once again I ask is their any scientific proof that switching hands in either baseball or fencing has any significant advantages or disadvantages over being strictly a single hand hitter or fencer?

hitting, yes. fencing, no.

-m

[jkormann]

Originally posted by MikeHarm
I tried training at a local SCA based fencing club recently. It was interesting but wasn't right for me. They have a lot of fun with their fencing but it seemed like a good way to get a lot of red cardable habits quick if you're focused on competing under USFA rules.

I'd say you didn't get a good explanation of their fencing style before you jumped in. One of their Marshals gave me a 10-15 minute "this is how we do it here" spiel that took alot of the chaos away.

The off-hand is considered to be a mailed glove. It is suitable for deflecting an opponent's blade along the edge. Any point will kill the hand. Grabbing is generally not allowed. Once you get the hang of the 'off-hand parry', life can get easier.

There is also no strip, they fence in the round. You watch to make sure your opponent won't run into anyone/thing and they do the same. Turning of backs is frowned upon, but is allowed.

Yeah, they do alot of crazy stuff that would get you kicked out of a FIE tournament. And for a FIE fencer, once you get the hang of their rules, you can pretty much beat up their lower to mid-range fencers. It's the ones that come at you with these strange hanging guards that really make your day.

And as someone else noted, a good disengage works wonders. They generally don't use it (it is period!) so I show it around and get others to use it. Makes the games more fun and they go go abuse others who don't know it.

Note to epeemike: was having a grumpy day. Appologies for the harshness.

[MikeHarm]

I heard a good theory for training with both hands. It was that each side of your body uses a different half of your brain so it would help you think about the technique in different ways.

[Inquartata]

In addition to the ability to change hands between bouts, isn't there also an exception which allows one to switch hands due to an injury sufficient to preclude further fencing strong-handed? That is to say, if there's an injury such that the only alternatives are to switch or forfeit?

Incidentally, at least for epeeists the only absolute necessity in extra gear would be a body cord up each sleeve and a glove ( which could be your regular one turned inside out, I imagine ), and of course weapons. No lame, and if you wore a back-zip jacket, it'd be a fairly quick changeover...

I'd hate to consider the prospect in foil or sabre, though.

[epeemike81]

umm..... its not much more difficult in Sabre or foil. after all, a lame can be backzip just as easily as a jacket.

-m