real weapons that can be used with fencing skills

[somebody1]

any suggestions? how about the rapier..?

[Inquartata]

Sure, though not all are applicable.

Fencing skills, reactions, ways of thinking, etc. can be useful even with NO weapon.

[damianip]

Duelling épée, smallsword maybe. Italian duelling sabres and singlestick.

Other weapons start to diverge although the basics of timing and distance can apply to many martial arts.

There are some folks here with experience with real weapons (Chris Umbs comes to mind).

They'll know better.

Paolo

[Sildar]

The short and simplistic version:

French foil retained many of the principles and techniques of French smallsword fencing.

Italian foil retained many techniques and principles of Italian rapier fencing.

Sabre and epee are more closely related to the dueling sabre and dueling epee of the 19th century.

Obviously, the further back in time you go the greater the differences become. And of course, some instructors teach more classical techniques than others; and by more classical I mean more closely related to dueling practice...

As Inquartata mentioned, fencing principles can be applied to more than European swordfighting. Bruce Lee considered fencing to be the martial art with the most refined analysis of timing and footwork, and it heavily influenced the development of Jeet Kun Do.

[Sildar]

I should mention though that rapier technique differs in some fundamental ways from modern fencing techniques; perhaps most obviously in the use of stesso tempo as defense and counteroffence. Most rapier masters of the 17th century considered the parry-riposte to be evidence that you were a lousy, second-rate fencer, since that kind of action is not what most rapiers were designed to do.

[S. Fisher]

I'm going to believe that in "real weapons" you are talking about swords.

One trained in classical foil would have most of the ability to be able to fight with a smallsword. A dueling epee would be right up any fencers alley. I think with given time a sabre fencer would have the full ability to fight with the 19th century military sabre. Depending on the fencer it would take a while for one to be skilled with single rapier, rapier and dagger/cloak/buckler. Despite what Bob Anderson has led some to believe, real rapier fencing is not what you see in the Princess Bride and The Three Musketeers(1993). Also, the "great arrogance" Aldo Nadi said that a skilled fencer should be able to fence with a broomstick, which is true.

[D'Artagnan1673]

How about a weapon that many of us carry around depending upon the weather, an umbrella. I doubt that many of us will ever find ourselves fighting with dueling swords, but how about that umbrella?

Scenario: Wet day and somebody has pulled a knife on you.

Granted an umbrella is not a sharp weapon, but a skilled fencer will be able to use distance, more distance and timing to beat off an attacker. I bet that tip would hurt if a fencer drilled a thug in the middle of the throat or in the face. Not just that, but someone used to acting under fire would stand a great chance since in such a situation. You may scare the thug off once he realizes that you aren't a pushover.

[Gav]

Having used a 19th Cavalry Sabre in [what I refer to as] 'mock' duelling (some might say Historical Fencing - I digress) I can say that it is possible to use a Cavalry Sabre on foot even though I found the weapon extremely cumbersome. I found that an experienced fencer with a good grounding in Fencing principles could wield it effectively. With practice I saw no reason why a modern fencer couldn't use it. I felt that a lot of people in Historical fencing circles dismiss modern Fencers out of hand. I easliy applied the Timing, Speed and experience that I had gained to wield the Sabre effectively, the main difficulties being the lack of balance (it was a cavalry Sabre and therefore supposed to be used from horseback) and weight (I wasn't particularly suprised by this). Additionally I now have a nice scar that I picked up when allowed my guard to drop in a moment of fatigue.

I've also had a shot of duelling Epee's, Smallswords and Rapier and Dagger techniques.

[Sildar]

And let's not forget that sticks were used for sabre practice for a long time before Radaelli. "Singlestick" was even an Olympic event briefly in the early 20th century.

It's also worth mentioning that dueling sabres of the 19th century were different weapons than cavalry sabres, and it is the former that sport sabre came from. Dueling sabres were meant to be used on foot, were lighter, and were used a bit differently than their cousins, military sabres.

Speaking of which:

Gav-
Are you anywhere near Edinburg? Maestro Paul Macdonald teaches all kinds of historical fencing, including singlestick, at his academy there if you're into swordfighting...

[latenight]

If all you have is an umbrella, either:

A. Give him what he wants

or

B. Run like hell.


Given the high quality construction of most umbrellas, I wouldn't bet my life on fighting with it.

Unless you have an umbrella that shoots darts or poison gas a la the Penguin in the campy Batman TV series....

[D'Artagnan1673]

Oh come on, haven't you ever seen that commercial where the guy takes out four people with an umbrella?

Okay, lets say you have an excellent, high quality umbrella. How about then?

[Inquartata]

Then open the umbrella and block his vision so he can't see you picking up that brick...

I would use an umbrella ( even a stout one ) if retreat were impossible and I had nothing better. Luckily, I almost always do.

[Gav]

Sildar: I know Paul very very well. He used to be my flatmate!!! In fact Paul got me into Fencing many moons ago. I am well aware of the Dawn Duelists (I believe that I am still an honorary member or something). Paul is one of the few local Historical fencers that I have the time for, unlike a lot of Historical Fencers, Paul has the ability to fence and also has the depth of knowledge to be good on his subject. I have a lot of time for Paul even if I think that a lot of British [I can't speak about other nationalities] Historical Fencers are of the 'romantic' kind.

Oh and yes, I live in Edinburgh, we've just had a major fire in the city which Has destroyed a large section of Cowgate area. This area is part of World heritage site and many of the destryoed buildings were irreplaceable. It's very sad.

[sean]

If you are mugged, and you have an umbrella, give the mugger the umbrella as well. Distance and timing mean very little when your mugger really doesn't care about being carded from grabbing your weapon with the off hand then BEATING YOU WITH IT!

Seriously. Muggers want your cash. Give it to them and stay alive. Fencing is not self defense. Hell, most self-defense instructors will tell you to fork over the cash.

[D'Artagnan1673]

You would run? I am not saying that I would not run as well, but I'm trying to speculate how one could defend themself against a mugger. I know that an umbrella lacks the balance of a foil or epee, but a dexterious person could evade that off-hand grab and beat you with your own weapon tactic. How about holding the weapon in both hands, feint a thrust to the stomach then lunge and take the guy's eye out when he reaches where your "weapon" is not. Some umbrella's have a metal tip which although dull could still do some damage if hit properly. If he doesn't fall for that, does not a fencer have the ability to change tactics and find something that works. You will have the distance over the mugger so you could always stop thrust into the face (ouch!).

Sure, you could run to save your skin, but in doing so you have allowed another criminal to gain a small victory over our rights as humans. Am I saying that I wouldn't run? I am not sure. If I sized my opponent and my surroundings and found that he was not extremely big and that I was not backed into a corner, then I may fight it out. You never know, the guy may take your money and then knife you to eliminate a witness. Then again, he may leave you be. Are you willing to take that chance?

[Strydus]

Of course, you could always take to carrying a "real" weapon (rapier could be nice...). If you know how to handle it, most people would leave you alone.

Then again, that's not exactly convenient size wise and you'd most likely get some very odd looks...

[D'Artagnan1673]

Its a shame that sword canes are illegal. I wonder if you could get a government permit to carry one say in the same way that you can get a concealed carriers permit for a handgun.

You could always have an umbrella made to your specifications and have a sword in the umbrella. Of course, you'd have everybody and their dog asking questions about that curious handle.

[Gav]

See the earlier thread about using Fencing weapons against criminals. That had a lot of good information on it. I see that some of the people here would seriously expect that a fencer with his life in danger and a vaguely fencing style weapon to hand would still rely on fencing rules - that's just stupid.

[DJ Apostrophe]

Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673
Of course, you'd have everybody and their dog asking questions about that curious handle.

What's so curious about a visconti grip?
-w

[D'Artagnan1673]

Seriously expect? I have said that I myself didn't know what I would do. I like to have speculative disucssions about things like this. I am not suggesting fencing rules, but techniques. What I percieve to be stupid is how some people on this board are taking this topic too seriously.

DJ - Why would anyone find a visconti out of the ordinary?