Challenge International de Paris 2010

[erooMynohtnA]

So just to be clear, you're saying Baldini parried Hatoel's riposte that had already missed with the second blade contact against Hatoel's guard?

[epeeslasher]

Hey, you asked and I gave you an answer.

To be more clear, Baldini made a sweeping counter-reposte in prime. Your pictures don't tell the whole story.

[erooMynohtnA]

I wanted the right answer, not an answer. Baldini doesn't do a sweeping prime, his blade goes around behind his head before it makes contact with Hatoel's on the downward movement. I suggest you watch it again. There are actually three blade contacts if you listen carefully, and the touch is thrown out upon review.

Anyway, if anyone more qualified can give me an answer, I'd appreciate it. I'm guessing the ref just didn't want to call one against Baldini.

[Goldgar]

I wanted the right answer, not an answer. Baldini doesn't do a sweeping prime, his blade goes around behind his head before it makes contact with Hatoel's on the downward movement. I suggest you watch it again. There are actually three blade contacts if you listen carefully, and the touch is thrown out upon review.

Anyway, if anyone more qualified can give me an answer, I'd appreciate it. I'm guessing the ref just didn't want to call one against Baldini.

I'm not able to run it in slow motion or frame by frame -- and I'm not claiming any special qualifications -- but to my eye it looks like Baldini's counter-riposte didn't hit, and then the fencers remised simultaneously.

[epeeslasher]

I wanted the right answer, not an answer. . I suggest you watch it again.

Anyway, if anyone more qualified can give me an answer, I'd appreciate it. I'm guessing the ref just didn't want to call one against Baldini.

Wow. That's the last time I try to help you.

[erooMynohtnA]

I'm not able to run it in slow motion or frame by frame -- and I'm not claiming any special qualifications -- but to my eye it looks like Baldini's counter-riposte didn't hit, and then the fencers remised simultaneously.

I thought Baldini's action landed on Hatoel's blade, but the ref wouldn't have the sound on replay to tell whether or not that happened. So assuming that it was a miss by Baldini, in the case of a first miss by Hatoel then second miss by Baldini, then double lights you'd call that a simultaneous remise, not Hatoel's remise?

[Goldgar]

I thought Baldini's action landed on Hatoel's blade, but the ref wouldn't have the sound on replay to tell whether or not that happened. So assuming that it was a miss by Baldini, in the case of a first miss by Hatoel then second miss by Baldini, then double lights you'd call that a simultaneous remise, not Hatoel's remise?

That would depend on the timing of the actions. Certainly if Hatoel's remise began before Baldini's, it wouldn't be simultaneous. Probably if there were no discernible pause between Baldini's miss and the start of Hatoel's remise, I would *perceive* it as Hatoel's remise regardless of how it ought to be called. But it seems to me that there was a slight pause -- a WTF moment -- and then both remises begin simultaneously. I wouldn't give Hatoel priority under those circumstances.

Again, this is just the way it looks to me. I can't tell what the referee on the spot actually called, and I can't see the video in slow motion.

[Superscribe]

I just think that the ref couldn't figure out who was in control of the second blade engagement because of the infighting, so he couldn't parse out who had ROW. I'm curious how Downunder would have called it.

[bigdawg2121]

Looked like Hatoel's touch to me but then again I'm just watching on my phone.

[erooMynohtnA]

Again, this is just the way it looks to me. I can't tell what the referee on the spot actually called, and I can't see the video in slow motion.

Ref called: parry, counter parry, counter riposte, touch, point Baldini. (Initially)

After the replay, he approached the fencers and did a wave-off that looked sort of like a simultaneous/no-touch hand signal, so it looks like he called it your way.

I would also be interested to hear from Downunder.

[Goldgar]

I would also be interested to hear from Downunder.

Me, too.

[edew]

Looked like Hatoel's touch to me but then again I'm just watching on my phone.

Ya know, 50 years ago, Dick Tracy woulda been proud of this comment.

[Jason]

Ya know, 50 years ago, Dick Tracy woulda been proud of this comment.

Nah. He would have preferred "phoning on my watch".

[eac]

To me, it went, Hatoel comes forward, Baldini does his counterattack/AIP thing, Hatoel parries it, Baldini goes up around his head, possibly parrying Hatoel's riposte on the way, misses (and there's a blade sound), and then both hit. I'm not completely sure whether Hatoel actually parried, or if the blade contact was incidental, and the video resolution doesn't seem like it's going to help us there. It did seem like Hatoel tried to flick the chest on his riposte, and the motion of his arm around then could have just been trying that and missing and then wiggling, or it could have been an actual parry.

Also, while I'm obviously prone to have catfights myself, this seemed like an unnecessary one.

I applaud the use of screenshots, but what we really need is for someone with Windows to just bite the bullet and go here and regale us with the resulting cut-ups. A screencast of that would be fantastic. Or, if you feel scrupulous, there's obviously kinovea.

I kind of want to write my own one of those, but I don't have any time. In the meantime, has anybody gotten .NET 2.0 to work in wine?

[Gav]

I wanted the right answer, not an answer. Baldini doesn't do a sweeping prime, his blade goes around behind his head before it makes contact with Hatoel's on the downward movement. I suggest you watch it again. There are actually three blade contacts if you listen carefully, and the touch is thrown out upon review.

Anyway, if anyone more qualified can give me an answer, I'd appreciate it. I'm guessing the ref just didn't want to call one against Baldini.

I don't know why the ref didn't call it first time. This camera angle doesn't show the view from the ref's elevation. It's entirely possible that he initially thought that Baldini just scored on the riposte. Though he did take a long time over that decision.

You're right (I think) in that it's the remise of the riposte rather than the first one that lands. But does Hotoel establish his priority before Baldini gets the remise in?


On review neither gets the hit and the ref has a word with both of them - stating that there was no hit. So clearly on review the refs decided that no one had right of way when the lights came up.

It's all really academic though because it played out the way it did. It was a close call and I wouldn't like to be the ref making it. It's that unpredictability that makes sport interesting.

Downunder can no-doubt give a better analysis but that's the way I see it.