Challenge International de Paris 2010

[kalivor]

Baldini (2nd seed) lost to 63rd seed?? "champion of the world" huh...

Yes, he is. Why the quotation marks?

[rudd]

An interesting set of results all right. No Italians in the last 32!! The team results were a little more predicable except for the poor performance from Germany.

[erooMynohtnA]

FIE videos just put up some of the bouts on Youtube, including eight with American fencers. The one I've inserted is Gerek Meinhardt beating Peter Joppich 15-14.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGmihF97XIA[/youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSdJXdtDFy0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfnAZU2uk0I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM0mkHvlK0k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vImnsgVZ_Io

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uahdcxBaS_I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC2q0Xf7XH8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mwG4MEZjcY

[erooMynohtnA]

By the way, it appears the USFA's decision not to mandate bib target has not impeded our foilists' international results. Discuss.

[edew]

Nothing against our US fencers Meinhardt and Massialas -- and their opponents, but boy, modern foil with the new timing really makes for non-telegenic viewing.

[keith]

Nothing against our US fencers Meinhardt and Massialas -- and their opponents, but boy, modern foil with the new timing really makes for non-telegenic viewing.

You think.

Have to say I enjoyed the Meinhardt/Joppich bout. The others were also pretty entertaining, not much leaping in the air and hitting on the small of the back but you can't have everything I suppose.

[erooMynohtnA]

I totally disagree that men's foil is less fun to watch now. But then again, I prefer college basketball to the NBA.

[edew]

It's not the flying flicks that made it entertaining. It's the more aggressive actions allowed when fencers know that they just have to hit the target and not keep the damn tip depressed for 15ms or more. In the Massialas/Kwon bout, you see both fencers were very reluctant to attack. Kwon was the more aggressive of the two, making a good number of his early touches by attacks while Massialas made almost all his touches by parry-ripostes and counterattacks.

Notice how the two fencers make a LOT of short false-ish attacks that basically put their blades about 6 - 10 inches from the opponent's chest. It's not that they're incapable of making an extra step. It's because they're scared of a strong counterattack causing their attack (with RoW) will cause the tip to bounce off without getting a light.

[erooMynohtnA]

So you have to set up your actions. Why's that bad for viewers?

[epeeslasher]

Notice how the two fencers make a LOT of short false-ish attacks that basically put their blades about 6 - 10 inches from the opponent's chest. It's not that they're incapable of making an extra step. It's because they're scared of a strong counterattack causing their attack (with RoW) will cause the tip to bounce off without getting a light.

This is incorrect.

[edew]

Because it takes all day before they actually commit. And once they make the action, if it didn't hit and the riposte didn't hit, it's remiserville. If I want to watch epee, I'll take it without the off-targets.

[erooMynohtnA]

Notice how the two fencers make a LOT of short false-ish attacks that basically put their blades about 6 - 10 inches from the opponent's chest. It's not that they're incapable of making an extra step. It's because they're scared of a strong counterattack causing their attack (with RoW) will cause the tip to bounce off without getting a light.

This is incorrect.

You must not have watched the video, because he's more or less correct. If you would like to dispute his claim, I suggest information.

Because it takes all day before they actually commit. And once they make the action, if it didn't hit and the riposte didn't hit, it's remiserville. If I want to watch epee, I'll take it without the off-targets.

Again, this is just personal preference of what actions you like to see. For you, fencing seems to be an aesthetic and technical endeavor. If anything, your description sounds good. There is a diversity of action that wasn't there before. Although I definitely agree that remiserville is not where you want to be for entertainment.

I'd be more willing to listen if you made a complete argument. For instance, if I didn't like watching lefties fencing eachother and I said it was bad for viewers I would immediately trace it down my reasoning to why instead of making someone ask for every step. Lefties aren't familiar with eachother as much as they are with righties. Lefties then stick with more basic actions to the inside where the opponent's blade is. All you see is parry four or beats to four, so all you see are indirect hits to the front of the shoulder and direct hits inside. Since one person's back is turned it's hard to see what's happening on his inside at all, leading to poor viewing experience since you can only see half the action. Voila.

Additionally, if I want to watch saber I will take it without the off target lights.

[edew]

Well, Kwon and Massialas' bout went to time with 12-8 as the score (could be 9-8 except Alex had to attack and didn't get any hits, because it's so damned hard to hit when forced to attack in foil because of the de-bounce and because the back and flanks are now effectively worse than being off-targets). Such scores are more likely than not. 5+ years ago, it would be very difficult and rare to see a foil bout, especially men's foil, go to time before someone scored the fifth touch.

So the net effect is epee to the chest.

[eac]

If you want saber, you know where to find it. Foil is still pretty thoroughly distinct from epee. Yeah, you have the defensive bouts like massialas/kwon, but you also have highly offensive, dynamic bouts like meinhardt/joppich. And Joppich is really defensive, and it was dynamic anyway.

[erooMynohtnA]

Well, Kwon and Massialas' bout went to time with 12-8 as the score (could be 9-8 except Alex had to attack and didn't get any hits, because it's so damned hard to hit when forced to attack in foil because of the de-bounce and because the back and flanks are now effectively worse than being off-targets). Such scores are more likely than not. 5+ years ago, it would be very difficult and rare to see a foil bout, especially men's foil, go to time before someone scored the fifth touch.

So the net effect is epee to the chest.

Again, how is any of this this non-telegenic? I understand how this is something you don't like, and I agree with you that foil is now more like epee than it used to be, and I've said the same thing myself. However, I don't understand how your preferences translate directly to what other people like to watch.

[edew]

Well, obviously, it's my own preference, but clearly, two people standing around, not wanting to hit is not telegenic probably under most people's idea of what telegenic activity may be. (Like two boxers circling each other. Ok, the first 45 seconds or so, the cognoscenti might say they're feeling each other out. But by the 13th round, it's a big yawn and the spectators are booing.)

[Superscribe]

You're going to get bad match up's regardless of what timing you're on.

Massialas and Kwon were not telegenic.

The "new" timings can still be very telegenic.

[eac]

Out of curiosity, do you find any of the other gender/weapon pairs currently telegenic? Or was it only old-timings MF you liked?

[erooMynohtnA]

Some more videos came up today.

Miles Chamley-Watson

Kurt Getz

And Andrea Baldini getting beat in the 64.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em9w5HmQbkE[/youtube]
Earlier in this thread I found out that earns him the right to be "Champion of the World" in addition to World Champion.

Edit: Someone explain to me how the touch at 4:38 is not Hatoel's?

[epeeslasher]

Some more videos came up today.



Edit: Someone explain to me how the touch at 4:38 is not Hatoel's?

Because Baldini parried the reposte and hit on a counter-reposte while Hatoel remised. Listen and you'll hear the blades meet twice, Hatoel's parry followed by Baldini's parry.