En Guarde position

[Pansy]

I was wondering if there's a preferred position for on guard. I was talking to a friend of mine in fencing, and he fences with his back arm lowered and bent slightly at the elbow with his hand relaxed. This is instead of the "classic" position of having the back arm bent up with the hand relaxed. Which one is most popular with you all?

[Inquartata]

In sabre, I use:

All descriptions assume you are right-handed:

*Modern ( Russian? )advanced center guard

Arm almost, but not quite, fully extended; hand is rather low, just above knee level; blade is about 25-35 degrees from the horizontal, point directed almost straight at the opponent or a very little to his flank side; the edge and the knuckle-bow of the bell is also pointed almost straight ahead or perhaps very slightly to the right, covering the outside of your arm. Body leans slightly forward.

*Advanced Hungarian

Much like the classical Hungarian (q.v.) but the blade is held flatter and the arm is more extended---not as far as in the Russian, however.

*Classical Hungarian ( occasionally )

Arm is bent at about a 45 degree angle, elbow about one fists' width from your right hip and forearm almost horizontal to the ground or even slightly inclined downward. Forearm is also a bit turned outside, away from the body, the better to close the three line, and the edge/ knuckle-bow of the guard is turned decidedly out as well ( almost 45 degrees from the opponent ) to facilitate closing the line---it's a very strong defensive guard, less well suited to aggressive attacking. Blade is canted at a slight angle across the body, right to left, and slightly inclined toward the opponent---not as much as the Russian or Italian but more than the withdrawn Hungarian ( or Polish, as some may call it ), toward his mask. Torso is very erect and at about 45 degrees from full profile. You will feel this one in the muscles of the outside of your upper arm when doing it correctly.

*Italian ( occasionally )

There are really two guards, tierce and seconde. In tierce the weapon hand is very high, at about shoulder level, arm bent at about a 35-40 degre angle. The hand is in full pronation, the knuckle-bow and edge is to the right ( ie the flat of the blade is pointed at the opponent ). The Blade is pointed toward the opponent's mask, slightly to his right side, very much more horizontal than in the classical Hungarian or withdrawn Hungarian and even slightly more than the Russian. ( Very vulnerable to beats and prises de fer, but it has other advantages: it is so seldom seen anymore that it startles some opponents or makes them dismiss you as a "gypsy", it lends itself very well to stop cuts because of the subtly different distance and angles, it will often close out a countercut and it is much faster to give point from this guard. ) The body is in strong profile, that is as little as possible is shown to the opponent---you are side-on to him.

Seconde is taken by dropping the point from the tierce guard down and slightly to your right. The point winds up pointing toward the opponents hip or in some cases even at his knee.


*Withdrawn Hungarian

I have just talked to someone who calls this the Polish guard.

Body erect and chest turned full-front toward the opponent or as much so as possible. Guard is near the right hip, elbow slightly behind it, blade nearly vertical. The idea here is to make only one distance for the opponent to attack, not several ( head, chest, flank, arm ). Body very often leans strongly forward.

*For want of a formal name, low horizontal guard, point forward

Hand is about hip level, just in front of the right thigh. Knuckle-bow/edge aimed almost straight down. Blade is horizontal to the ground and directed toward the opponent's right hip or thereabouts. Useful when retreating or when you wish to deny the opponent a chance to beat your blade. A very quick, sharp parry up and out can be made from this one, and an upward glancing beat as well when attacking.

*Low horizontal guard, point to left

Briefly, take a good head parry position, then just drop the arm until the hand is at hip level or thereabouts, pronated, point angled to the left and horizontal to the ground or very nearly so. Very difficult to find with a beat, as these almost always look to a director like your parry...

*Quinte guard

Basically, the head parry position used as a guard. Like the traditional guards it closes a line, just a different one, in this case quinte. Very nice to make stop cuts from, too.

*Hanging guard ( very rarely )

Arm extended, hand at the level of your own head, to the right, blade "hanging" straight down.

Although you might call a lot of these invitations instead, I guess.

The way I see it, anywhere you can do a parry ( and then some ) is also a guard. Some are more useful than others.

[whtouche]

Inquartata, could you explain these engarde positions more?
Id specify which, but while I may be familiar with some of them, not by name.

[Inquartata]

Which ones?

[veeco]

It's funny, that reminded me of one of my sabre fencer friends when I was fencing in high school. He used to be able to go on guard, and then you'd find out in the next couple of seconds which country (or even region of France) he was trying to make fun of.

Most of the time they were exagerated, but it was soooo true.

[JEC]

Would that be the rationale for the Milanoli's on guard/"invito" positions?

[veeco]

Originally posted by JEC
Would that be the rationale for the Milanoli's on guard/"invito" positions?

Just to piss people off!!!!

[Manjusri]

I generally fence with my left (rear) arm in a relaxed lowered position, but when practising footwork, or giving a lesson, I try to keep, or get the student to keep the rear arm in the classical position, upper arm parallel to the floor, forearm raised, hand relaxed. This is because I try to cultivate the habit of moving the arm through that position when extending the rear arm in the lunge. When the extension of the rear arm during the lunge, is from the relaxed lowered position, the arm tends to generate sideways momentum which will throw point control off.

[FHPyro4L]

although i don't suppose it's allowed, but i've never been called on it.... i kept my rear arm bent and against my back...

[135711]

Originally posted by Manjusri
I generally fence with my left (rear) arm in a relaxed lowered position, but when practising footwork, or giving a lesson, I try to keep, or get the student to keep the rear arm in the classical position, upper arm parallel to the floor, forearm raised, hand relaxed. This is because I try to cultivate the habit of moving the arm through that position when extending the rear arm in the lunge. When the extension of the rear arm during the lunge, is from the relaxed lowered position, the arm tends to generate sideways momentum which will throw point control off.

I agree that this is good practice, it also keeps the left arm strong.

[D'Artagnan1673]

I may do some footwork drills in the traditional stance, but when the heat is on, I fence in a more modern stance with my left arm down and away from my body.

[nahouw]

Originally posted by veeco
Just to piss people off!!!!

Paolo doesn't have his stance just to piss people off -- it is just to make people attack. Unfortunately, in the current style du jour of counter-attacking, this happens to piss alot of people off, because they don't want to attack, only counter-attack.

Paolo is frustrated by the tactics du jour of counterattacking -- he would much rather have opponents that actually want to get into a fight and use bladework.

Paolo would rather see fencing return to the concept of the duel rather than what the sport has evolved to.

[whtouche]

Originally posted by Inquartata
Which ones?

All of them? I realize you listed quite a few, but not being familiar with any really by name, Im curious.

[veeco]

Originally posted by nahouw
Paolo doesn't have his stance just to piss people off -- it is just to make people attack. Unfortunately, in the current style du jour of counter-attacking, this happens to piss alot of people off, because they don't want to attack, only counter-attack.

Paolo is frustrated by the tactics du jour of counterattacking -- he would much rather have opponents that actually want to get into a fight and use bladework.

Paolo would rather see fencing return to the concept of the duel rather than what the sport has evolved to.

Well, you may see it in one way or another. I see it as the fact that his stance is to try and get people angry which in turn will make them attack. So you can either see it as a provocation. Or as an invitation.

Seeing Milanoli's (sorry I'm not yet on a first name basis with him :-) fencing and behavior on the strip makes me think that it's more of a provocation than an invitation.

But you may see it differently or have inside information on his psychological mindset when he fences. In which case, please share it with us!

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by whtouche
All of them? I realize you listed quite a few, but not being familiar with any really by name, Im curious.

Uh...I'll essay it...but---do you fence sabre? They won't do a lot of good for foil, much less epee...

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Inquartata
Uh...I'll essay it...but---do you fence sabre? They won't do a lot of good for foil, much less epee...

yes, he does.

-m

[Inquartata]

OK, I've edited my original post to include a description of each guard mentioned.

As a caveat, note that most people do not use this many positions, and that the more you practice many the less you can practice any one...and we do live in an age of specialization. Also consider the sources---I was taught classical and advanced Hungarian formally, and am now taking lessons from a Polish guard advocate, but the Russian I sort of evolved into, from watching good fencers and mimicking what looked interesting. The Italian I learned from no one, because as far as I know it isn't taught anymore---most modern saber fencers have never even heard of it, much less seen it ( hence its occasional usefulness )...I studied Barbasetti and Bertrand and experimented with it until I got it to work to my satisfaction. And the hanging guard is older still, coming from the maual of the cavalry, as opposed to the fencing, sabre.

In other words, I am not a coach, nor do I play one on TV. I merely love variety and complexity...

[whtouche]

Thank you very much. Unfortunately I believe Im too tired to be able to adequetly convey how appreciative I am. Very interesting, and some of it explains some things I've seen before but didnt understand.
Thanks again.

[edew]

I usually fence with the standard (modern) rear-arm down position. But this past Monday, I kept getting hit on the rear arm when I closed in to counter-attack against a flick to the chest. So I decided to go back to the classical arm up position. Voila, instead of hitting off-target on my arm, the blade hit flat against my chest and the counter-attack landed with just one light.

See, it's important to know how to use different stances and positions.

[135711]

i don't like my arm too far down, nor too high up, i like the leverage, so i keep my arm mid level to the shoulder, without drifting, and keeping in mind not to cover the target, but the best en garde is a mid-way relaxed/tensed engarde. anyone here master that one?