Fencing Quiz

[Craig]

I've taken down the link to the quiz for now. Thanks for the feedback.

Since these are questions from the FOC, I'm working with Bill Oliver in the FOC to determine what questions will be posted here and will abide by their guidelines for providing the actual correct answers vs. just a tally of the correct vs. incorrect.

[Peach]

Dang. I'm so lucky I never have to take it again. I always screw up on the same ones when I haven't studied it.

This is a GREAT idea.

[Gav]

That was fun. I am at work and was really pushed for time to complete it (no excuse for my score). However I will have to consult my copy of the rules. There were a couple of questions which I feel may have an incorrect answer - I'll need to check them beforeI get in to a flame war .

A couple of the questions reflect the US environment (I presume).

Very interesting, I'l post again once I've done my research and found out if I'm wrong.

[epeemike81]

Originally taken from epeemike81's quiz results
As fencer X makes a straight attack, the Referee notices that fencer Y is in danger of tripping over the reel. The Referee calls Halt!. At the moment of the Halt!, fencer Y makes a parry and then an immediate riposte that lands valid on X.

Your Answer: do not award the touch, as the action started after the Halt!
Correct Answer: award a touch for Y

Your answer was wrong
Fencer X makes an attack, which is parried. X is off the side of the strip in front of Y with both feet when fencer Y?s immediate riposte starts. Y?s riposte lands valid.

Your Answer: do not award a touch; have Y advance one meter, and then place them in the lateral center of the strip
Correct Answer: award a touch for Y

Your answer was wrong

Ummmm...... Craig, I think you need to review these questions. In both cases, it is stated that Y's action starts AFTER the act which causes the halt. Contrary to common misconception, Y is NOT entitled to a riposte. Y is entitled to finish any action STARTED before the halt. Since the actions in these cases have been started AFTER the halt, there should be no touch awarded.

-m

[oiuyt]

There are DEFINATELY a few with incorrect responses. I agree with epeemike81 above, those were two of the 4 I got "incorrect." The other two (listed below) are blatently wrong answers.

With no penalties give, fencer X is certified by the technical expert to have equipment that, in an obvious case of fraud, has been modified.

Your Answer: X receives a Black Card
Correct Answer: X receives a Red Card

Your answer was wrong

Obvious fraud is a group IV penalty. Therefore a black card.

With no penalties yet given, fencer X reports to the strip with a mask that does not bear the marks of the preliminary inspection

Your Answer: X receives a Red Card
Correct Answer: X receives a Yellow Card

Your answer was wrong

Absence of inspection marks is a group II penalty, therefore a red card.

While I like the idea of setting up the quiz, having the correct answers is absolutely a must.

-B :)

[Philistine]

Fencer X makes an attack, which is parried. X is off the side of the strip in front of Y with both feet when fencer Y?s immediate riposte starts. Y?s riposte lands valid.

Your Answer: do not award a touch; have Y advance one meter, and then place them in the lateral center of the strip
Correct Answer: award a touch for Y

Isn't the test's answer correct as to this one in the absence of any indication of the timing of (or even if there was) a "halt"?

--Philistine

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Philistine
Isn't the test's answer correct as to this one in the absence of any indication of the timing of (or even if there was) a "halt"?

--Philistine

But there IS an indication of timing. "X is off the strip when Y's immediate riposte BEGINS."

THAT is the timing, and it is CLEARLY after the halt. The halt occurs when x leaves the strip, whether the director says halt immediately or is a little late.

-m

[Craig]

email or pm me the questions that you think have an incorrect answer in the key. I'll check again to make sure the correct answers are there.

Also - should have noted that this quiz is really "beta" at this point. Before making it an "official" feature, I plan to have the FOC review and bless the implementation.



Craig

[Craig]

Originally posted by epeemike81
But there IS an indication of timing. "X is off the strip when Y's immediate riposte BEGINS."

THAT is the timing, and it is CLEARLY after the halt. The halt occurs when x leaves the strip, whether the director says halt immediately or is a little late.

-m

The key is immediate riposte. X gains an advantage over Y by leaving the strip if Y's immediate riposte is not allowed. If Y parries, and then ripostes (not immediate), then Y's touch does not count.

This is the same application as with passing - X isn't allowed another action, but Y's correct response should be rewarded, not penalized because X ran out of bounds/past the other fencer.

I'll get a clarification of that one also.

Cheers,
Craig

[135711]

well, i took the test, it was very good, thanks for the fun! i got 50%, it looks like i'll have to study. bye for now.

[Mergs]

Great idea, Craig!!! Just took the quiz and did fairly well. Have got to remember (as with all tests that I take) to RTFQ (read the ****ing question!). Are you going to do this with the Armorer's Study Guide?

[Peach]

I went and looked at the penalty chart. I always find this process so frustrating--I've taken and passed the referee test, and attended two divisional referee seminars as well as a fair number of sessions at NACs, and I seem to get different answers. Maybe someone can clear these up?

Originally posted by oiuyt

With no penalties give, fencer X is certified by the technical expert to have equipment that, in an obvious case of fraud, has been modified.

Your Answer: X receives a Black Card
Correct Answer: X receives a Red Card

Your answer was wrong

Obvious fraud is a group IV penalty. Therefore a black card.

Is it a question of semantics? Manifest cheating is a Group IV penalty, but intentional modification of equipment is a Group III penalty. Which is it?

With no penalties yet given, fencer X reports to the strip with a mask that does not bear the marks of the preliminary inspection

Your Answer: X receives a Red Card
Correct Answer: X receives a Yellow Card

Your answer was wrong

Absence of inspection marks is a group II penalty, therefore a red card.

In this case, absence of weapon inspection marks is a group II penalty. However, mask inspection marks aren't mentioned in the penalty chart.

[edew]

I agree with OIUYT about the several questions on red card vs black card. Manifest cheating with equipment is an immediate black card (t.45/3(e)).

Intentional modification of equipment is a red card, but after a red card is offered, makes it a black card.

I guess it may be in the technical way the question was phrased, with "intentional modification" as the method of making the equipment illegal, as opposed to manifest cheating with equipment.

I recall, when discussing the answers with an FOC person, the point was that the specific use of certain words lead precisely to the application of one rule versus another. It is not for you, the test taker, to make assumptions about how the equipment was made illegal. The question already tells you: intentional modification.

[BugabooX]

Even though "Falling is no longer an offense and consequently is no longer penalized" (according to the new rules), "It is understood that an offensive action that is launched in such a way that the fencer is not in control, and thereby falls, is disorderly fencing and does require a warning and the annulling of an touch scored."

So re "With no penalties yet given, fencer X falls during an attack. X’s attack lands on the opponent’s valid surface.": I thought this would fall under that rule. I guess not?

Also, re "No penalties have been given. While retreating, fencer X parries fencer Y’s attack, touches Y on the valid surface and then falls; Y’s remise arrives on the valid surface.": Is X performing an intentional riposte, or is it dumb luck that he touched the guy after a parry? I don't know if this would be considered an offensive action or not. It would seem to make a difference in the answer.

[edew]

I would suggest you read the last paragraph of the post I wrote above yours.

In many cases, the wording of the question fits exactly into the way the offense is described in the Rules. If it says, "falling..." then it's falling, and you should not assume whether the person was out of control or not. If they want to indicate that the person was fencing out of control, which led to that person falling, the question would have been phrased as, "Fencer X, fencing out of control, falls. During the course of the fall, X hits Y valid..."

It's all in the way the questions are worded, to match one set of offense, or another.

The only one I didn't get right, because I was ignorant of it, was counter time. The other three I didn't get right were questionable, or based on not reading the wording exactly as written.

[Inquartata]

Yes, my jaw dropped on seeing the "correct answers" to the questions involving deliberate fraud and vindictive acts. The timing one I wonder about as well...

One of them I answered too quickly and chose "allow touch for X, and penalize" for setting aside the opponent's blade with the left hand, which should have been "annul touch and". The others were those pesky equipment specifications---centimeters of bell padding, strip length, etc. Bah!

[BugabooX]

Originally posted by edew
I would suggest you read the last paragraph of the post I wrote above yours.

In many cases, the wording of the question fits exactly into the way the offense is described in the Rules. If it says, "falling..." then it's falling, and you should not assume whether the person was out of control or not. If they want to indicate that the person was fencing out of control, which led to that person falling, the question would have been phrased as, "Fencer X, fencing out of control, falls. During the course of the fall, X hits Y valid..."

Bogus.
So the default inference -- and don't kid yourself; there's room to assume in either direction -- is that it's possible to "fall during an attack" and still be in control.
OK. Whatever.

[Gav]

I found the quiz interesting. The ones I got wrong were all of the ones listed here plus a couple that I judt didn't read properly. I still haven't checked the questions over however I'll get a couple of FIE rated ref's to look it over if I get the chance. Craig's comment about the questions being in 'Beta' mode is fair enough.

[Craig]

Thanks for your comments. I'm going to take the quiz down now and make sure that the correct answer key is being applied before making this feature a "main link". The last thing I want to do is have someone get misinformation on the rules.

That being said, Eric is correct in that the exact wording of the questions is very important to what the correct answer is. The key to reading the questions on the referee exam is to set aside all assumptions and go with only what the question tells you.

Thanks again for the feedback.

Craig

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by webmaster
The key is immediate riposte. X gains an advantage over Y by leaving the strip if Y's immediate riposte is not allowed. If Y parries, and then ripostes (not immediate), then Y's touch does not count.

This is the same application as with passing - X isn't allowed another action, but Y's correct response should be rewarded, not penalized because X ran out of bounds/past the other fencer.

I'll get a clarification of that one also.

Cheers,
Craig

This is a common misconception. Y is NOT entitled to an "immediate" riposte, he is entitled to finish any action which STARTS before the halt. Since the question states that his riposte (immediate or not) STARTS after his opponent leaves the strip, it is not valid.

I notice Bill Oliver took this test. I suggest you show him this question and ask his opinion.

-m