The Draft

[Swordsman]

Referring to something mentioned earlier in "Babes Fencing":

I agree with the point that it would be better not to have to use the draft. However, that (and the point that it probably won't be used in the near future) does not change the principle of my point:

Women should be required to register for the draft, just like men. One has no right to complain about the inequality of men and women unless one also pushes for opening the draft to women.

[Inquartata]

You are forgetting that there is a double standard in double standards. Those which favor men=bad, those which favor women=good....

[Catlady]

You should be able to determine my gender from my screen name, and guess what? I think that anyone who wants to be in the army should be--women, homosexuals and grey aliens for that matter-- and furthermore, the draft should be extended to everyone should it ever be-- and I sincerely hope it won't be-- reinstated.

That said, if it were, and I were drafted-- thank heavens, by virtue of being 27 and in school I would be further down the list-- I'm afraid I'd have to move to Canada. Unpatriotic perhaps, but I assure you between my utter cowardice, general accident proneness, laziness, and my inability in all likelihood to kill someone-- frankly I have trouble stepping on spiders-- I would make a singularly terrible soldier. Not to mention I'm too much of a non-conformist. I am completely unable to keep from questioning authority if I disagree with them. In civilian life this is troublesome--for both me and those I question-- but in combat it could get me, and more importantly, others killed. The army would be better served by sending me to fight for the enemy.

Granted I fence, and have been known to play the occasional violent computer game, I have been known to have quite intense verbal battles, but that's different. In those cases, either no one dies or is physically injured or those who you "kill" don't really stay dead. Perhaps if it were literally me standing between the "bad guys", or guy and my near and dear, I might be able to kill someone, but even then I doubt it. And before you assure yourself that you in fact could kill someone and/ or handle being involved in war, consider that with the except of a few such as Salle Armourer, or Mergs, you've never really been in that situation. Even if you've done training exercises simulating being at war and killing, or running the risk of being killed, you still have not experienced the real thing, and no matter how serious it felt, there is at least a tiny sliver of your mind, even if it's unconscious, that knows that it isn't for real.

I don't express my squeamishness and other qualms about war and killing for the precise reason that I don't want to damage the cause of those women who do want to be in combat roles. I can just hear someone saying, see, it's just you women are too tender hearted and that's why you shouldn't get to serve in combat positions. I can tell you despite my feeling, there are women out there who could and would be able to kill.

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by Catlady

I assure you between my utter cowardice, general accident proneness, laziness, and my inability in all likelihood to kill someone-- frankly I have trouble stepping on spiders-- I would make a singularly terrible soldier.

Heh, sounds like the perfect supply clerk to me! ( Not every---or most---Military Occupation Specialties involve carrying a rifle or driving a tank. They also serve who only sit and type letters in quadruplicate... )

Not to mention I'm too much of a non-conformist. I am completely unable to keep from questioning authority if I disagree with them.

That's what Basic Training is for---to crush every last iota of independence out of you, er, I mean, to instill DISCIPLINE and OBEDIENCE!

Seriously, it's the rare "nonconformist" who can survive that much concentrated brainwashing...and that's really what it is...

[Catlady]

That's what Basic Training is for---to crush every last iota of independence out of you, er, I mean, to instill DISCIPLINE and OBEDIENCE!

Seriously, it's the rare "nonconformist" who can survive that much concentrated brainwashing...and that's really what it is... [/b][/quote]

I would be the rare non-conformist. I don't intimidate well--people have tried-- I tend to cop an even bigger attitude. Granted, that's what pushups are for--I guess at least I'd have huge arm muscles-- but even the army with its oxymoronic "military intelligence" would eventually have to realize a lost cause when they see it.

That and I've been told I'm an incompetent clerk.

[Peach]

I'm not sure why people triumphantly bring up the draft as some kind of stopper for female equality. Sure, women should be drafted, if anybody is drafted. I've never understood why we weren't. But then when I was a kid, back when I really didn't have the option (and when I didn't have any common sense), I used to daydream of fighting in combat (I am a sabre fencer, after all) . I always had to write in some kind of drag for the daydream, because women weren't allowed to fight. We weren't allowed to do much of anything, because we were female. Our society has made huge strides, and there are growing pains, but I'm so tremendously fortunate for part of my life to belong to a society which contemplates the idea that just because you're a woman it doesn't mean you are invisible. Or the very possibility that a person could be paid equally for equal work.

[Crin Dalmeiier]

You're right, Sword. We sit here and complain about unequal rights, and then we don't get drafted. I was once a feminist, and I may go on about rights once in a while, but I don't believe that women should be drafted. Many may hate me for this, but it's something I grew up believing and it's something I've put a lot of thought into. However, don't get confused and tell me I don't believe women should go into the military, for I will flash my ROTC sweatshirt at you faster than you can say "Whomp." And Whomp's an easy word to say.

Why do I believe women shouldn't be drafted?

Because I really don't believe that men should get drafted either.

I see no need for a draft now. Our military forces are perfectly strong, and with installations like the Air Force Academy (BTW - Congrats, Sword) and West Point, we have good leadership. And we have thousands of people enlisting in the military. In Switzerland, every man has to perform two years of military service, and whenever threat comes, can be called back into service. Here, things are more voluntary, and that is what I like about our country.

A draft, to me, is unAmerican. During the World Wars, it was necessary, I know, but I seriously don't think it is anymore. We've got more branches of the military than we did then.

Of course, I could be wrong. If I am, don't hesitate to correct me.

[Inquartata]

No, it isn't necessary at the moment, which is why it is in abeyance. It might become necessary again at some point in the future, however---and that's the point of the question: if and when men are subjected to a real draft, ought women to be exempted? And if so, why?

[veeco]

Originally posted by Inquartata
No, it isn't necessary at the moment, which is why it is in abeyance. It might become necessary again at some point in the future, however---and that's the point of the question: if and when men are subjected to a real draft, ought women to be exempted? And if so, why?

- Because there's gotta be some people left in the country to run it after the war is over and a large percentage of the population who could work is now deceased? Granted, why should it be the women and not vice versa? I guess it's as an arbitrary rule as other...

Or maybe because some people have to work in the country while the war is going on as well?

I remember seeing a vintage poster once that said something like: For every soldier, a woman worker!

Don't forget that during the world wars was the time when women first started to work the jobs that were usually reserved to men before. It was a great time for women liberation.

[Inquartata]

The usual reason cited is biological: kill off most of your males and the few that remain will suffice to replenish the population, but kill off most of your females and the population will take a long, long time to recover, human gestation periods being what they are. Men are thus much more expendable, women must be preserved for the future of the race.

But given that the current problem with population is that it's too high in the first place, that one is sort of moot any more...

Personally, I'm content to have women exempted from a draft. Not all double standards are necessarily objectionable. Unless you have elevated abolute equality to the top of your list of social values, as some elements of the feminist movement have---in which case it's difficult to support the exemption, I'd think.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by veeco
- Because there's gotta be some people left in the country to run it after the war is over and a large percentage of the population who could work is now deceased? Granted, why should it be the women and not vice versa? I guess it's as an arbitrary rule as other...

Or maybe because some people have to work in the country while the war is going on as well?

I remember seeing a vintage poster once that said something like: For every soldier, a woman worker!

Don't forget that during the world wars was the time when women first started to work the jobs that were usually reserved to men before. It was a great time for women liberation.

Ah, but with NO draft, you could see posters that read:

"for every soldier, a pansy worker!" (with me being the first one!)



-m

[edew]

The bottom line way to look at this whole issue is thus: if you have a choice, would you rather be a male or female (nevermind the intelligence or looks or whatever)? Given our current social codes and all that, would you rather be male or female? Caucasian or not? Straight or homesexual?

That's the bottom line. I think anyone who would opt for anything other than straight white male is just BS-ing. Of course one would rather be a straight white male. By a large margin.

It's not so much whether you're happy as you are. You better be, because you can't change it. But, if you look at the statistics, other than a shorter average lifespan (which is getting closer to the female's average), everything shows much more benefit for being a straight white male.

Until the day comes when we all cannot honestly make a clear choice, there is still discrimination and inequality in this society.

[edew]

Originally posted by Inquartata
The usual reason cited is biological: kill off most of your males and the few that remain will suffice to replenish the population, but kill off most of your females and the population will take a long, long time to recover, human gestation periods being what they are. Men are thus much more expendable, women must be preserved for the future of the race.

But given that the current problem with population is that it's too high in the first place, that one is sort of moot any more...

Personally, I'm content to have women exempted from a draft. Not all double standards are necessarily objectionable. Unless you have elevated abolute equality to the top of your list of social values, as some elements of the feminist movement have---in which case it's difficult to support the exemption, I'd think.

The earth's human population is the largest in history. But it's not nearly overpopulated. Indeed some people claim that it's actually underpopulated, based on the economic need for more people. Whatever. Most first-world countries are actually decreasing in population due to families having fewer than 2.1 children (which is the sustaining population amount). The reason why the population is still growing, globally, is because people aren't dying off as fast as they used to.

If you think there's too many people in the world, the best thing is a good, nasty war. Male or female as soldiers. Don't matter.

If you think, as I do, that there is need for more people, that there is plenty of space still available for even more people, then having a war makes little sense.

[jkormann]

Originally posted by edew
The earth's human population is the largest in history. But it's not nearly overpopulated.

I doubt there's enough space for everyone. The countries that don't have enough space are filling up rapidly and the countries that do have enough space, no-one wants. When was the last time people voluntarly migrated to, say, Iraq? Lots of room, very little infrastructure.

The Central NE USA (home for me) is getting WAY crowded. Too many houses, in too few plots. Municipalities are forcing houses to be on no fewer than 2 acres to slow down growth. Soon there won't be an empty spot for a new house.

[KShan5[PrFC]]

everything shows much more benefit for being a straight white male.

Many times after a divorce, their are child vistiation anddisputes and who gets to have rights to the kids. And many a times it is the female, not the male who can ctonrol the kid. And many of these times it is not because the mother is most nurturing, but because she is female. Their is discrimintaion in the world towrds the white heterosexual male.

[Gav]

Kshan there is discrimination everywhere. Sadly it's a fact of life.

I get discriminated against when I'm in England (I'm Scottish), English people can get discriminated in Scotland (because they're English). In these cases it down to ignorance with a dash of misplaced 'patriotism'. You just do the best you can.

In a sense you are correct with regard to divorce cases that there is a bias towards women. This is because [in general] the perception is that the children will be better of with their mothers. It is true that this isn't necessarily always true and I would like to think that the courts in general think of what's best for the children. I believe that this is the cse in the UK however I cannot comment on the rest of the world.

Generally though I would definitely say that being a white male is a distinct advantage in the discrimination stakes.

[Niceguy4186]

I feel females should not be drafted, i'm sorry but the fact just is, males are phyically better off. what would you rather be in, a squadern of females or men? if you get wonded in battle, would you rather have a 200lb guy throw you over his shoulder and take you back, or 140 lb girl try and do that... granted there are females out there who can hold there own, but they are few and far between. (ps, i have the same feelings about female fire fighters, but that's for a different thread)

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Niceguy4186
I feel females should not be drafted, i'm sorry but the fact just is, males are phyically better off. what would you rather be in, a squadern of females or men? if you get wonded in battle, would you rather have a 200lb guy throw you over his shoulder and take you back, or 140 lb girl try and do that... granted there are females out there who can hold there own, but they are few and far between. (ps, i have the same feelings about female fire fighters, but that's for a different thread)

Umm... given the number of women I know who could kick your ***, I'm gonna have to disagree on this one. In addition, that is only relevant in the rare (relatively) case of hand to hand combat. The bottom line is that though men are physically stronger, this is by no means a large enough disadvantage that women can't overcome it.

As a friend of mine said in response to your post:

"someone's been watching GI Jane and stealing lines again without watching the end of the movie"
-m

[achilleus]

Originally posted by epeemike81
Umm... given the number of women I know who could kick your ***, I'm gonna have to disagree on this one. In addition, that is only relevant in the rare (relatively) case of hand to hand combat. The bottom line is that though men are physically stronger, this is by no means a large enough disadvantage that women can't overcome it.

A drafting women doesn't only mean drafting the exceptional women capable of kicking a man's ***. Yes, they are out there, we all have seen them, but they are the exception, not the norm.

Originally posted by epeemike81
As a friend of mine said in response to your post:

"someone's been watching GI Jane and stealing lines again without watching the end of the movie"
-m

I thought this was a great, witty response, until it hit me that your friend might actually find a meaning in a movie as rdidiculous and over the top as GI Jane.

[MikeHarm]

You can count me in on those who support including women in the draft. Every extra person put into the mix before they draw the names is one less chance for me to get stuck with it.