youth to senior

[chigirl]

Often I will hear people will say that the kids who do incredibly well in youth fencing, especially those who are pushed hard, will burn out or won't stay at the top when they're older. On the other hand, how often have you seen kids do so-so in youth (middle of NPL) and really break out down the line? I'd love to hear observations from people who've been in the fencing world for a while.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Becca Ward v. Tim Morehouse.

[chigirl]

Becca Ward v. Tim Morehouse.

Can you explain? Thanks.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Can you explain? Thanks.

Becca Ward achieved a great deal before college. Just about everything one can achieve, (with a couple exceptions), she did. Incredibly gifted fencer. And she's now in college on a full fencing scholarship. But she's not currently doing much outside college fencing, and while the Duke program isn't bad, it's not going to keep her at peak fencing ability. This may allow her to take a break and she may avoid ultra burnout, and at some point after college she may get back into it, or it may frustrate her even more.

Tim Morehouse was not very sought after by coaches coming out of high school. He went to Brandeis, a Div 3 school, did well, and then did better, and eventually became an Olympian. He's on here sometimes, but he's a little busy right now, he's at a World Cup right now. From the outside looking in, his burnout doesn't seem to be fencing based (as an adult, he seems to be able to manage that well himself), but paying-for-fencing based.


There's only one Senior Points list. There are a lot of other points lists-- so, strictly speaking, if you're looking to make a points list, you're more likely to succeed if you've got lots of opportunities....... but each individual is different. Personally, I knew my parents weren't going to bankroll my fencing enough for me to make any of the Junior or earlier points lists, and it's unlikely I'm going to make the Senior points list. I'm not worried. There's still veteran's points to worry about, and I figure I can get in a LOT of lessons before I have to worry about points events for those.

[bob46]

Often I will hear people will say that the kids who do incredibly well in youth fencing, especially those who are pushed hard, will burn out or won't stay at the top when they're older. On the other hand, how often have you seen kids do so-so in youth (middle of NPL) and really break out down the line? I'd love to hear observations from people who've been in the fencing world for a while.

At least in foil, kids "burn out" when the youth fencer gets points by using his/her small target area to squirm and not get hit. On the other hand, if the youth fencer focuses on form more, then he/she generally will not "burn out" and still do reasonably well when he/she gets older.

[pillow]

At least in foil, kids "burn out" when the youth fencer gets points by using his/her small target area to squirm and not get hit. On the other hand, if the youth fencer focuses on form more, then he/she generally will not "burn out" and still do reasonably well when he/she gets older.

I agree. One technique that works well to avoid this type of "burnout" is to continue to use a small lame. There are a number of Olympic foilists from many countries who have been using the same size lame since age 12. This way they remain a small target. It is a little difficult to move, and sometimes the ref will call you on it, but overall, it is an excellent strategy for the aspiring World Cup fencer.

[larkascending]

I agree. One technique that works well to avoid this type of "burnout" is to continue to use a small lame. There are a number of Olympic foilists from many countries who have been using the same size lame since age 12. This way they remain a small target. It is a little difficult to move, and sometimes the ref will call you on it, but overall, it is an excellent strategy for the aspiring World Cup fencer.

An even more effective strategy is to not grow. In Europe, successful coaches keep their young students on a strict diet and start them on heavy weightlifting by age 8.

This training regimen is why all the most successful and talented international foilists are under five feet tall.

[pillow]

An even more effective strategy is to not grow. In Europe, successful coaches keep their young students on a strict diet and start them on heavy weightlifting by age 8.

This training regimen is why all the most successful and talented international foilists are under five feet tall.

Another good idea. The liberal use of tobacco and alcohol in Europe probably helps as well to keep the fencers smaller.

[bbower]

An even more effective strategy is to not grow. In Europe, successful coaches keep their young students on a strict diet and start them on heavy weightlifting by age 8.

Weightlifting does not stunt growth. I don't care if this is just a flippant comment meant to derail an otherwise interesting thread. It's irresponsible to perpetuate this myth.

http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/W...nceptions.html

[pillow]

Weightlifting does not stunt growth. I don't care if this is just a flippant comment meant to derail an otherwise interesting thread. It's irresponsible to perpetuate this myth.

http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/W...nceptions.html

I suspect that flippant comments are developing is because the answer to the OP is so self evident. Some fencers start as prodigies and continue, some burn out, some start as good to great fencers and develop into champions, some start out great and settle into mid pack Div I fencers---pick any combination you want and we can find example in every weapon. There are no rules.

[foibles]

Another good idea. The liberal use of tobacco and alcohol in Europe probably helps as well to keep the fencers smaller.

I believe this is referred to as 'The Tin Drum" technique wherein y12's, with the assistance of cigs and whisky, simply choose not to grow.

[chigirl]

pick any combination you want and we can find example in every weapon. There are no rules.

That's why I posted. I'm relatively new to the sport and was hoping to hear those examples.

[RITFencing]

It's too varied to make one blanket statement...

A kid who does really well in youth fencing because they're learning to fence well and understand what's going on, who is also able to keep learning and growing and who has a good psychological background and plenty of support can stay successful for a long time.

A kid who is just fast and strong and squirms a lot, doesn't want to expand their game or get away from that and who hates fencing, gets pushed into it or is from an abusive situation probably won't.

There are, of course, many different degrees and variations.

[pinkelephant]

I agree. One technique that works well to avoid this type of "burnout" is to continue to use a small lame. There are a number of Olympic foilists from many countries who have been using the same size lame since age 12. This way they remain a small target. It is a little difficult to move, and sometimes the ref will call you on it, but overall, it is an excellent strategy for the aspiring World Cup fencer.

Ah yes. The lame thong.

[chigirl]

It's too varied to make one blanket statement...

A kid who does really well in youth fencing because they're learning to fence well and understand what's going on, who is also able to keep learning and growing and who has a good psychological background and plenty of support can stay successful for a long time.

A kid who is just fast and strong and squirms a lot, doesn't want to expand their game or get away from that and who hates fencing, gets pushed into it or is from an abusive situation probably won't.

There are, of course, many different degrees and variations.

While I certainly understand that it would be silly to make any "blanket statements", I still find your observations interesting and helpful and would welcome any others. Thanks so much.

[Mo]

While I certainly understand that it would be silly to make any "blanket statements", I still find your observations interesting and helpful and would welcome any others. Thanks so much.

There is an issue of burnout and then there is an issue of moving on and getting a taste of another life outside of fencing.
Especially in the US, being a professional fencer is almost impossible unless you are willing to completely give up control of your life, as in never growing up.
Some kids have more in mind for their lives and can still continue to fence. They can get the thrill of fencing without having to give up their freedom to do it.
Tim Moorehouse seems to be doing both. He has his freedom and he is doing what he wants.
On that thought, so is Becca Ward.
B

[Inquartata]

Yes.

If one finds that one does not love fencing enough to live with the adversities, that is not burn-out. If one is driven away from it by the behavior of others, that is not burn-out. If one finds that, to use an economics phrase, fencing has been driven lower on one's utility map by other preferences, that is not burn-out...

But I'm puzzled by MP's intimation that Tim Morehouse is "burned out"...

[MyrddinsPrecint]

But I'm puzzled by MP's intimation that Tim Morehouse is "burned out"...

Not real burnout.

Just... like... split ends burnout. The kind where either he could get a haircut and be fine or his hair could need some real love before it gets back to normal, but in either case, not burn unit burnout.

[Inquartata]

Girl, put away the bong before you post!