Spacing out in fencing

[Marquis1972]

Hello,

I'm curious about those who have experienced 'spacing out' while in a bout. How do you shake it off in order to re-focus which sometimes being deaf can have a slight adverse effect, trying to struggle to read lips. I have suspected that I may have had some ADHD and need to figure out a way to snap out of a certain stupor. I fence epee for the most part and have never directed a bout officially because I'm not certified yet.

When I'm asked to direct someone's matches, I politely decline due to the fact that I'm not certified and inexperienced. Not only that, I don't want to screw things up especially if I 'space out' a lot.

Just wondering about others if they had a similar experience.

Thanks.

-A

[Zhais]

Best way to get better at directing is to direct.

Otherwise, make the bouts exciting! If you're getting bored fast enough for ADHD to kick in, you're not doing enough.

[Marquis1972]

Best way to get better at directing is to direct.

Otherwise, make the bouts exciting! If you're getting bored fast enough for ADHD to kick in, you're not doing enough.

Well, I'm addicted to fencing and won't give up on it because it gives me something to do besides my creative work at home. Although, I don't have enough confidence to direct a bout in local tournaments around here because I'm afraid I'd 'space out' or forget the last few seconds.

But being in a bout with epee in hand is not a problem and I do worry a bit when my mind goes into a 'blank slate' almost as in "No Mind" (Miyamoto Musashi's Book of 5 Rings).

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Do a whole bunch of reading about sports psychology. It will help you not space out in the first place, and help you re-center during those times when you inevitably do space out. There are plenty of threads here, they will have advice, but they'll also link you to youtube videos, books, articles, and plenty of other resources. There isn't a whole lot that's fencing specific, although there is some stuff, but don't be afraid to read stuff that's specific to other sports, especially individual sports like tennis. You'll be able to make some of it work for you.

If you're particularly convinced you have ADD, you can get screened for it by a professional, and receive official treatment for it (drugs/and/or cognitive/behavioral therapy), or you can just assume that many of the things that help those with ADD live better lives will help you no matter what, and can be done without seeking treatment, make those changes in your life, and then seek professional assistance later if you're still having trouble (depending on insurance/monetary situation, this one might be easier.) I've found http://www.additudemag.com/ to be a good source that offers medicine based solutions, therapy based solutions, as well as diet, exercise, and lifestyle solutions, all while keeping in mind whether or not there is any science behind what is being suggested. It's a little low on the actual citations for my taste, but I've been able to find the studies eventually when I was particularly curious. (Short Answer-- Get blood tests to make sure you're good on things like Iron, maybe try fish oil, try to expand your time near plants/wilderness/green things). This mixed with the sports psych stuff will help whether or not you're diagnosable as ADD.

When it comes to directing--- Do a whole bunch of directing practice bouts. There, it doesn't matter about messing up, and you will, a whole bunch, and your friends will make fun of you, and it will be okay. And you'll get used to that. And you'll get better. Then, after you've gotten used to that, THEN you can start messing up bouts at real tournaments. First you'll mess up bouts at real tournaments where it's not a qualifier, where people have asked you to ref and you've warned them you're new, and people may still complain or make fun of you, and it will still be okay. And you'll get even better. Then you'll eventually get paid to start reffing things were it kind of almost matters a little bit, and you almost kind of know a little bit about what you're supposed to be doing-- and you'll still mess up. And it will still be okay, and you'll still get better. But you should--- at the very very least-- keep reffing the practice bouts at club where it really doesn't matter, because those will give you a different perspective on your fencing, which will help you be a better fencer.

tl;dr-- Search "sports psychology" and read that stuff, you can fix some of the ADD stuff whether or not you're actually ADD, ref practice bouts at your club so you'll be a better fencer.

[Allen Evans]

When you refer to "spacing out" what you are probably referring to is losing your attention. There are two types of external attention: broad external attention (like you might use for scanning a crowd), and a narrow, focused attention (like you might use to hit a baseball pitch).

Fencers are called upon to do both, shifting back and forth as needed. You might not be shifting your focus often enough (from the broad to the narrow), you might be shifting it too often, or you might be shifting it at the wrong time, because you lack the experience of when that shift has to take place.

Certainly if you have a physical inability to concentrate, some sort of intervention might be needed. Or, it might just take you a little longer to learn when (and how) to shift your attention while fencing. You might need to spend a little bit of time becoming aware of where your eyes are while you are fencing...a coach might have told you always stare at (the hand, the face, the shoulder...something) and as a result, you aren't shifting your attention enough.

Zhais was almost on the right track when he mentioned that your bouts might not be exciting enough. It could be that you aren't fencing at an optimal physical level. Or, it could be that your fencing TOO much. Does your attention tend to wander at the beginning of class/fencing (when you might not be fully warmed up)? Or at the end of class (when you might be tired)?

Personally, I think ADHD is over diagnosed and over medicated in the US, but that doesn't mean that you aren't ADHD. Only a professional can make that judgment (and it can't be done over the internet!). If you feel that ADHD is a factor, see a professional, THEN do some research on your options.

AE

[catwood1]

When it comes to directing--- Do a whole bunch of directing practice bouts. There, it doesn't matter about messing up, and you will, a whole bunch, and your friends will make fun of you, and it will be okay. And you'll get used to that. And you'll get better. Then, after you've gotten used to that, THEN you can start messing up bouts at real tournaments. First you'll mess up bouts at real tournaments where it's not a qualifier, where people have asked you to ref and you've warned them you're new, and people may still complain or make fun of you, and it will still be okay. And you'll get even better. Then you'll eventually get paid to start reffing things were it kind of almost matters a little bit, and you almost kind of know a little bit about what you're supposed to be doing-- and you'll still mess up. And it will still be okay, and you'll still get better. But you should--- at the very very least-- keep reffing the practice bouts at club where it really doesn't matter, because those will give you a different perspective on your fencing, which will help you be a better fencer.

I think this is very well said. And obviously, it doesn't stop when you're at events that kinda almost matters. Then you become the new guy at the div2/3 NACs, then into the early rounds of the easier points event, then the later rounds, then the harder and more important points events.

Thats 1 great thing about refereeing. It gives you constant new challenges...

[MyrddinsPrecint]

And obviously, it doesn't stop when you're at events that kinda almost matters.

Yes, but I actually have been diagnosed with ADD.... so, uh, yeah.....

[JacoKierkegaard]

I'm inattentive ADD and an epeeist as well, so I definitely know the feeling. I space out a lot in classes, and even frequently while people are talking to me (yikes!), but for fencing I can usually keep a really sharp focus. I think it's a common thing among people with ADD, I've seen it referred to as hyperfocus.

I find that caffeine helps sometimes - as do a lot of stimulants with ADD - but I usually save that for help during class, while fencing I can do it with or without. I've got enough running through my mind in terms of plans for individual actions, overall strategies for the bout, and observation and analysis of my opponent that it doesn't give me an opportunity to space out, so I stay locked in instead. Maybe try making your bouts more active, if you're ADD then more frequent and varied stimulation caused by the fencing can help you keep your attention on it.

[Marquis1972]

Allen,

Actually, when I'm in a bout, I focus mostly on the chest/torso/shoulder and arm area but never look at the eyes for the most part for good reason. Because I took karate 20 years ago, that level of experience is kind of carried over into fencing in a one on one aspect. Given the fact, that I'm deaf/hard of hearing, I do what I can to watch the blade, but never the point.

To me, looking at the point is like trying to watch a fly go around or a speeding bullet. I would remind myself never to do that. Honestly, I've only been taking fencing since the fall of 2008, more than a year now. Sometimes during the lessons when the instructor speaks, my mind wanders and I have to snap myself back to reality. It's not always the case though because I tend to be able to grasp the lessons over time.

The other possibility is that I have some slight astigmatism and will need glasses. Otherwise, it is'nt anything major to worry about.

If I can get myself back into hyperfocus, acquire actual fencing shoes, then I can really be a bit more dangerous, flex the ball of my sole/toe area to a cat-like stance because I'm used to feeling the floor with my foot from my martial art days. The shoes I have are just standard adidas tennis court shoes. 20 years ago, I used to be a bit faster than I am now, if not much.

I did notice that lack of energy plays a role in 'spacing out' when I don't always have time to eat before going to fencing class or tournaments. I usually end up eating fruit or bagels lightly prior.

When you refer to "spacing out" what you are probably referring to is losing your attention. There are two types of external attention: broad external attention (like you might use for scanning a crowd), and a narrow, focused attention (like you might use to hit a baseball pitch).

Fencers are called upon to do both, shifting back and forth as needed. You might not be shifting your focus often enough (from the broad to the narrow), you might be shifting it too often, or you might be shifting it at the wrong time, because you lack the experience of when that shift has to take place.

Certainly if you have a physical inability to concentrate, some sort of intervention might be needed. Or, it might just take you a little longer to learn when (and how) to shift your attention while fencing. You might need to spend a little bit of time becoming aware of where your eyes are while you are fencing...a coach might have told you always stare at (the hand, the face, the shoulder...something) and as a result, you aren't shifting your attention enough.

Zhais was almost on the right track when he mentioned that your bouts might not be exciting enough. It could be that you aren't fencing at an optimal physical level. Or, it could be that your fencing TOO much. Does your attention tend to wander at the beginning of class/fencing (when you might not be fully warmed up)? Or at the end of class (when you might be tired)?

Personally, I think ADHD is over diagnosed and over medicated in the US, but that doesn't mean that you aren't ADHD. Only a professional can make that judgment (and it can't be done over the internet!). If you feel that ADHD is a factor, see a professional, THEN do some research on your options.

AE

[InFerrumVeritas]

If I can get myself back into hyperfocus, acquire actual fencing shoes, then I can really be a bit more dangerous, flex the ball of my sole/toe area to a cat-like stance because I'm used to feeling the floor with my foot from my martial art days. The shoes I have are just standard adidas tennis court shoes. 20 years ago, I used to be a bit faster than I am now, if not much.

That's right. Getting new shoes is the solution to all of fencing's problems. But get Nike Ballestras. They're like Jesus for your feet...

[Marquis1972]

I have no intention of buying the Ballestras . All I need is a good fencing shoe to allow me to flex my foot better. If you were a martial artist, you'd understand.

I have the footwork down fine, but want to make it better. If you tried that fencing stance in a street fight with shoes, you'd get wiped quickly.

Something like the Adidas D'artagnan series for under $80 online would be a good start for me.

That's right. Getting new shoes is the solution to all of fencing's problems. But get Nike Ballestras. They're like Jesus for your feet...

[Inquartata]

a certain stupor. I fence epee

There is your problem in a nutshell!

If you want to avoid stupors, switch to sabre. Or even to foil. Just avoid epee at all costs! Don't fence it, don't watch it, don't referee it, don't come to close to an epeeist's bag. Just say no!

[Marquis1972]

Amusing. I think stupor is'nt the right word I was trying to think of. Maybe obstacle is better?

Sadly, sabre is extremely small around here and there are no instructors that can teach it. Mine can teach epee and foil only. But foil screws me up in terms of habit and thinking dealing with ROW whereas I prefer the stealth, stalking nature, patience and close resemblance to rapier action of an epee .

EDIT: I'm not knocking Saber and find it interesting to watch, though. I've tried it out with dry fencing last month which had a different feel to it even though it's not part of the class's curricula.

There is your problem in a nutshell!

If you want to avoid stupors, switch to sabre. Or even to foil. Just avoid epee at all costs! Don't fence it, don't watch it, don't referee it, don't come to close to an epeeist's bag. Just say no!

[Wetmelon]

There is your problem in a nutshell!

If you want to avoid stupors, switch to sabre. Or even to foil. Just avoid epee at all costs! Don't fence it, don't watch it, don't referee it, don't come to close to an epeeist's bag. Just say no!

Ahhh you beat me to it

Yea, Epee is like watching paint dry for speed.

[JacoKierkegaard]

Ahhh you beat me to it

Yea, Epee is like watching paint dry for speed.

Speed, yes, but it destroys the others in terms of suspense and having a tense atmosphere. That's what makes it interesting to me.

[foibles]

If I can get myself back into hyperfocus, acquire actual fencing shoes, then I can really be a bit more dangerous, flex the ball of my sole/toe area to a cat-like stance because I'm used to feeling the floor with my foot from my martial art days.

It sounds like you used to use the act of noting the actual feel of of the ground through your feet as kind of a mental-emotional mnemonic (reminder or tool) to help you amp-up a little and increase your focus.

"Feeling the ground" helped you get to the right state of mind to compete. Not over-amped. Not mentally under-engaged.

Clicky

I dislike the term "arousal level" in sports psychology, but I appreciate the concept. Might look into it.

[Marquis1972]

Well, not only that, it is my experience that when you take martial arts in the dojo, you have to do this barefoot on the mat or hardwood floor. In most cases, dojos don't allow students to wear shoes except for some of the other art forms.

It's not just about amping up, but rather feeling 'grounded' to the floor. Bouncing up and down in a street fight or dangerous life threatening encounter IS the last thing you want to do. You don't have time to show off. After 3 minutes or less, it's over. I never took karate as a 'sport' but rather to teach myself self defense and as a discipline (not here in VT but from another state).

This is why I do not like regular gym shoes to fence. It feels un-natural, almost stodgy, and it's best to have actual fencing shoes to 'grip' the ground with your toes or rolling with the ball of your foot. Especially the fact when you do other forms of kicking, some times your other foot's heel is lifted to gain momentum and speed to launch the attack/counter-attack.

20 years ago, when I was doing the bouts using the iron-horse stance bare-foot, I could move around quickly.

It sounds like you used to use the act of noting the actual feel of of the ground through your feet as kind of a mental-emotional mnemonic (reminder or tool) to help you amp-up a little and increase your focus.

"Feeling the ground" helped you get to the right state of mind to compete. Not over-amped. Not mentally under-engaged.

Clicky

I dislike the term "arousal level" in sports psychology, but I appreciate the concept. Might look into it.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

20 years ago, when I was doing the bouts using the iron-horse stance bare-foot, I could move around quickly.

And you really think that in 20 years, the biggest thing that has changed hasn't been the degree of physical fitness you're in, the responsiveness of your body, how quickly you recover from injury, the condition of your joints..... but is instead what shoes you're wearing???

Don't get me wrong, I think if you're going to be more physically and mentally comfortable in other shoes, you should try them. I just think you have a skewed perception of what they'll do for you.

[Marquis1972]

I wish I can explain that easily, though. The regular Adidas I wear have been used for over a year now and the only way I can get fencing shoes are from online. Almost everyone wears them in my club, except for the new students.

The midsole part of my shoe is about half an inch or an inch thick while other 'fencer' shoes I've seen have thinner midsole, allowing more flexibility to bend the toes. I have a habit of using the 'cat stance' and used to do that years ago and glided around, pivoting the footwork to change the stance in the dojo.

Is there any major difference between regular gym shoes and actual fencing shoes? I've started fencing since fall 2008 and have good footwork. When I practice at home with socks on (can't use shoes since I live upstairs in the apartment and don't want to stomp on the floor loudly), I move somewhat more lightly and able to flex my feet but when I use the regular shoes, it's not easily done.

So, really I can't help it. It's an old habit from karate that I flex my toes to 'grip' the floor for balancing when moving around. I'm used to 'feeling' my surroundings because I'm deaf.

And you really think that in 20 years, the biggest thing that has changed hasn't been the degree of physical fitness you're in, the responsiveness of your body, how quickly you recover from injury, the condition of your joints..... but is instead what shoes you're wearing???

Don't get me wrong, I think if you're going to be more physically and mentally comfortable in other shoes, you should try them. I just think you have a skewed perception of what they'll do for you.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

I think you will probably see some benefit from fencing shoes. I think some of it will be psychological, I think some of it will be physical, but I do not think it will be a magic bullet-Tardis thing that will take you back to the physical and mental condition that you were in 20 years ago.

There was, however, a thread a while back, about why we wear shoes at all. There's a trend in running that suggests that humans evolved to run barefoot, and so runners can at least learn something by at least sometimes running barefoot, and sometimes running in very minimalist running shoes. I openly wondered if there was any indication that fencers might gain anything by a similar exercise, and the general consensus was ".... uh, we can't really think of anything...."