Health Care Transparency and CSPAN

[Fencergrl]

There was a vote done on a TV show to see who people thought was the greatest Canadian of all time. You know who got chosen? Tommy Douglas.

Who is he? Not a comedian, hockey player, singer or some other kind of celebrity... but a politician that came to power in an often ignored Province in the 1940's...

Not particularly noteworthy except in 1961 he introduced in our legislature the idea of Universal Healthcare.

Now I have to ask you Chase.... if Canadian Universal Healthcare is so awful, why would it be held in such high regard nearly 50 years after it was first introduced?

[chase]

There was a vote done on a TV show to see who people thought was the greatest Canadian of all time. You know who got chosen? Tommy Douglas.

Who is he? Not a comedian, hockey player, singer or some other kind of celebrity... but a politician that came to power in an often ignored Province in the 1940's...

Not particularly noteworthy except in 1961 he introduced in our legislature the idea of Universal Healthcare.

Now I have to ask you Chase.... if Canadian Universal Healthcare is so awful, why would it be held in such high regard nearly 50 years after it was first introduced?

Funny, I thought Wayne Gretsky was known as "The Great One"...

Seriously, it's because all the people its run afoul have died or left the country. If I recall correctly, I_luv_saber has a similar story.

Besides, Canadians aren't adherents to the free market, and that's why they will forever be second fiddle to America. Canadians ration healthcare by statistics and luck, whereas the free market is the only fair way to ration it. If you work hard, you get healthcare because you can afford it.

[RebelFencer]

I like how Chase conveniently didn't address being called out on pulling information out of his ass regarding the lines for health care in other countries. Just like a conservative to make crazy accusations and not own up to it when proven wrong.

[migopod]

REALITY CHECK: People are going to die either way. Thousands of people die in socialist systems every year, due to RANDOM rationing. I admit that healthcare is currently rationed today, but at least if you work hard and earn money, you can get care for you and your family. The liberal plan is basically like drawing straws. That's not fair.

You know that people with money don't have problems with health care anywhere. The kind of rationing that comes with socialized health care is the payer (govt) having to decide whether it's worth paying for a treatment or not (exactly as HMOs and other providers do currently), not whether or not the patient will be allowed to receive the care.

It's not drawing straws, it's not random and it's not unfair.

Peace!

[RebelFencer]

If you work hard, you get healthcare because you can afford it.

That's actually not entirely true. Not all people are able to go to college either because of a lack of intelligence or having money issues, and a high school diploma is worth less and less. A lot of these people end up at factories working around dangerous equipment for long hours and not a lot of pay. Guess what happens to health care premiums when they get injured? Guess how much more likely injury is when fatigued and around dangerous equipment?

And yes, I did do factory work during the summers and winters when I was in college.. so this is first hand information.

[Fencergrl]

Canadians ration healthcare by statistics and luck, whereas the free market is the only fair way to ration it. If you work hard, you get healthcare because you can afford it.

So many things wrong with your logic...

First off... your concept of how Canadian Healthcare works is way of base. Stats & luck are not necessary. Everyone gets their healthcare covered. I can walk into my doctor's office, medical clinic, or ER and see medical personal in a very short period of time.

Secondly, you equate the amount you earn with how hard you work. Someone can work hard their whole life and lose everything to the Hurricane the devastated your south coast, or from the economic crisis. On the flip side, someone could be born into a very wealthy family and never work a day in their life. To me... that's more about luck & randomness than anything else.

[I_luv_saber]

Y'all are letting chase get to you.

This is not meant to be a dupe of the Almight Health Care Thread. The point of the thread was absolutely not having to do with what health care system is better than what.

With that said, congratulations chase. You've been one of the most succesful trolls I've seen in a long time.

[Fiat Slug]

If you work hard, you get healthcare because you can afford it.

Chase, over 45 million americans do not have health insurance. Do you think that they are not hard workers or do you suppose it's possible that some of them work hard but still can't afford it?

.

[migopod]

Y'all are letting chase get to you.

This is not meant to be a dupe of the Almight Health Care Thread. The point of the thread was absolutely not having to do with what health care system is better than what.

With that said, congratulations chase. You've been one of the most succesful trolls I've seen in a long time.

I know, I know... But the Great and Powerful HC thread got a bit tl;dr

[I_luv_saber]

Ah well... Petersen's Law rings true again, I see....

[chase]

This is not meant to be a dupe of the Almight Health Care Thread. The point of the thread was absolutely not having to do with what health care system is better than what.

But is it not true that in the other thread you talked about how bad socialized medicine is? It seems that if you really do believe that you would back me up on this.

[jessicasimpson]

But is it not true that in the other thread you talked about how bad socialized medicine is? It seems that if you really do believe that you would back me up on this.

But ILS is open to facts and opposing points of view, in alot of cultures, this is attributed to "intelligence", in others, it is called "open minded". Long story short, you are a dumb ass.

[I_luv_saber]

But is it not true that in the other thread you talked about how bad socialized medicine is? It seems that if you really do believe that you would back me up on this.

*sigh*... ah well. I should know by know thread drift is a part of life on F.net.

Very well, I'll bite.

I did say (quite extensively), that I don't think socialized medicine is the best method because of what I feel are numerous flaws in that system (I'll not go into detail on what those are again. If anyone cares to know, the search function should tell all). However, it's also important to know that I also said our system as it is now I also see as broken.

To sum up what I've said over and over, I'm in favor of a system where the private sector is the one actually doing the legwork, with the government maintaining balance indirectly via regulation reform (note that this doesn't just mean adding regulation, but reforming what's there). Our current system, IMO, tilts the balance heavily in favor of insurance and pharmaceutical companies. In short, no, I am not in favor of socialized medicine... yet. I'd like to see a system more like Switzerland implemented first before we try a more drastic change (but I'm open to the fact it could one day be necessary).

[PretAllez]

Seriously, it's because all the people its run afoul have died or left the country.


Canadians ration healthcare by statistics and luck, whereas the free market is the only fair way to ration it. If you work hard, you get healthcare because you can afford it.

How do you think insurance companies decide who qualifies for benefits ... statistics, of course. Only their primary goal is to turn a profit, not the general health of the population

The following are true stories, and absolutely typical ....

In May 2009, a GP suggested that my 87-year-old mother have knee replacement surgery because of arthritis. She accepted, and was put on a waiting list, knowing that given her age, she would not be high on the priority list (BTW, she was perfectly ok with that concept). In September 2009 she got the call to see a specialist, she saw the specialist in October, was scheduled for surgery in December, but she rescheduled because it was too close to Christmas, and she was operated on THIS MORNING.

Keep in mind my mother's age, AND the fact that she has osteoporosis, blood pressure issues, minor heart disease (arteriosclerosis), thyroid issues (hypothyroidism) .... oh yeah, and she had surgery for colon CANCER in 1986, and a serious hip fracture in 2004 (fully recovered).

Total wait time: 8 months

So much for death panels....This myth about some government bureaucrat deciding who lives and who dies is absolute bullcrap. The only factors considered were MEDICAL ones, decided by MEDICAL personnel, and the priority list was established by the hospital, based on general MEDICAL guidelines set out by the provincial health department.


BTW: Her income-level was never an issue: my parents worked very hard all their lives, paid their taxes, but were never wealthy ... in their retirement, they don't have to worry about going bankrupt to pay for medical expenses, even though my father had a heart attack before he retired, and now has Parkinson's disease.
.i.e. no insurance company deciding what is covered, no co-pays, no paperwork, nothing .... just routine medical appointments, blood tests, x-rays, all entirely decided upon by the GP and surgeon, whose only interest is her health (i.e. they they get paid based on the number of visits/operations they perform, not whether the hospital turns a profit)

TOTAL COST to her: 0$ (Canadian)

Do you think any US insurance company or HMO would have even touched this case with a ten-foot pole (even 20 years ago?)

In another example, my 18-year-old daughter broke her leg in a serious riding accident in September, was immediately rushed to hospital, had surgery, including placing a permanent titanium rod down the center of her tibula, 5 days hospitalization, several follow-up appointments with the surgeon, including X-rays, and medication to prevent clots.

Total cost to the family = about $400 (mostly for the medication, ambulance and aircast and crutches, 90% of which was reimbursed by my husband's top-of-the-line, work-related insurance, for which we pay all of $46 per month, and which covers the family's prescriptions, eye-glasses, private rooms, etc )

Seriously, the most expensive part of the whole experience was PARKING at the hospital ....

Is the Canadian system perfect? Certainly not. No system is. There are cases where rare or experimental drugs or treatments don't get funded. Would they have been funded in the US? Maybe. Maybe not. Could most people afford them? Probably not. Are wait-times longer? Yes, partially because of limited resources, but also because priority is based on medical need rather than the ability to pay.

Would I want an American system ? Not in a million years.

And neither would the vast majority of Canadians; even the most die-hard conservative, pro-business, anti-union, anti-abortion, gun-toting, oil-sands lovin, pro-Yankee Canadian (Albertan?) politician who even hints at a "two-tiered" system is committing political suicide.

But the main reason I object to the American HMO-based system is that I believe that making a substantial profit from someone else's pain and misery by providing a service that is not really optional (i.e. health care, not cosmetic surgery) is unethical and just plain greedy.

Much as we would like to believe that we control our destiny, illness and accident often strike indiscriminately ... yes, you can certainly take steps to stay healthy, but no amount of money will protect you from multiple sclerosis, or many other diseases, not to mention the drunk driver barrelling down the highway. Because we are ALL subject to such catastrophes, so should we ALL pitch in to help when catastrophe strikes.(PLUS its a helluva lot cheaper when the paperwork is kept to a minimum and no one is MAKING A PROFIT).


"There, but for the grace of God, go I" is the ethical basis for universal healthcare.
I just think it's the right thing to do, and I don't mind paying for my neighbour's cancer treatment, or my son's teacher's heart surgery, or check-ups for the homeless guy down the street


But that's just me (oh, and the rest of us in the developed world, I guess)

p.s. I just called; my mom is out of surgery and in her bed on the ward, so I can go visit her now.... so I'm off

[jessicasimpson]

I think chase might be confused about what thing actually cost. chase goes to a private school, gets private tutors for school and sat's, gets private instruction in an expensive sport, drives a Tahoe. His parents are college grads that make alum donations.
chase is convinced he is "middle class"
He does not know/understand that his situation is not the average. Middle class families can't provide all of these things for their kids and still eat and pay rent.
Maybe he thinks people who don't send their kids to private everything and but a "cadilac" ppo health insurance plan are cheap or lazy. I don't know.
I have seen this attitude in the sheltered children of the far right lots of times. I have seen the opposite extreme in the shetered children of ex hippies, who think the government can and should solve everyone's problems.
If chase is not a real person, then he is the sock puppet of someone that has had alot of interaction with kids just like him, I know I have. chase is not my sock puppet BTW

[chase]

Story #1 and story #2

For every one story like yours, assuming they are true, and not just made up to make a point, there are 10 stories of people dying while waiting to see a doctor. It is like waiting at the DMV except you ACTUALLY die, instead of just feeling like it.

P.S. We're not rich. My Tahoe was a handmedown from my dad.

[RebelFencer]

For every one story like yours, assuming they are true, and not just made up to make a point, there are 10 stories of people dying while waiting to see a doctor. It is like waiting at the DMV except you ACTUALLY die, instead of just feeling like it.

P.S. We're not rich. My Tahoe was a handmedown from my dad.

You're right, most families can just afford to give cars away.

Again, here you go pulling facts out of your ass. How do you know that there are ten stories of people dying? Where is your research coming from? Seriously, grow a brain dumbass.

[jessicasimpson]

For every one story like yours, assuming they are true, and not just made up to make a point, there are 10 stories of people dying while waiting to see a doctor. It is like waiting at the DMV except you ACTUALLY die, instead of just feeling like it.

P.S. We're not rich. My Tahoe was a handmedown from my dad.

It is pollite of you to assume his stories are true, but I don't assume your 10 stories are true. You would be saying that for every person succesfully treated in almost every country in the world, eccept for the US, 10 die? how do you explain population growth? It is basic math.

ps. your family might be average with other families where both parents have college degree's, but you are well above average for the US.

pps. If your parents both graduated from the "best college in the world" (heavy sarcasim) how come they don't make more money?

[TBean]

P.S. We're not rich. My Tahoe was a handmedown from my dad.

I grew up in a solidly middle-class home and was not given a car. I bought my first POS, maintained it and paid the insurance - and thought I was pretty lucky to have my own car, and pleased I could keep in on the road. You are clearly not aware of the spoon in your mouth.

Again, here you go pulling facts out of your ass. How do you know that there are ten stories of people dying? Where is your research coming from? Seriously, grow a brain dumbass.

This is just Chase perfecting his AoE, we are not going to sway him from that endeavor.

[Fencergrl]

Would I want an American system ? Not in a million years.

And neither would the vast majority of Canadians; even the most die-hard conservative, pro-business, anti-union, anti-abortion, gun-toting, oil-sands lovin, pro-Yankee Canadian (Albertan?) politician who even hints at a "two-tiered" system is committing political suicide.

Alberta & Saskatchewan are seriously conservative. My husband, mother, & both grandmothers are from that area. PretAllez is not far off in his description of this area of Canada. They teach you how to handle firearms in schools there (just like driver's ed). It's seriously redneck.

Tommy Douglas came from Saskatchewan and gained popularity with his ideas there before he went to Ottawa. Universal healthcare just made sense & we haven't looked back.

I don't know what's going to work in the US, but from the number of people unhappy about the system there, it looks like it could use some changes.