Is The Transition To Pistol Grip Inevitable?

[King Thunderblast III]

This has been worrying at me for a while now. I largely Fence foil (sometimes Sabre, Fenced Epee once, not really a fan) and prefer a French grip. They seem more comfortable and I'm under the perhaps false impression that they allow more finger actions on the blade. I've only used a pistol twice and found both time that they hurt my fingers, I was probably holding it wrong - a friend of mine owns a blade fitted with this http://www.leonpaul.com/acatalog/Gry...stol_Grip.html and I found it rather comfortable.

Coupled with the fact that no one in my club uses French and I've read here that all the pros are also fitted with orthopaedic grips I'm wondering what I'm missing here?

Is it worth switching now in view of perhaps having to switch eventually? Or does personal preference play a huge part and would I be able to progress with the French?

[Gav]

Do you comepte? If not why be bothered?

In foil, currently, the answer should be yes (even if I think there's scope for it being used again...). There's plenty of threads on this so I want to introduce you to the search box at the top of the forum.

PS. If the ortho is hurting your fingers you are either holding it wrong, simply not used to it, or using the wrong size.

[kalivor]

Switch -- in foil, it is inevitable.

But before you do, try out as many different pistol grips as you can -- there are a wide variety, and you should be able to find one that's comfortable for you.

[King Thunderblast III]

Do you comepte? If not why be bothered?

In foil, currently, the answer should be yes (even if I think there's scope for it being used again...). There's plenty of threads on this so I want to introduce you to the search box at the top of the forum.

PS. If the ortho is hurting your fingers you are either holding it wrong, simply not used to it, or using the wrong size.

For my university, now and then yes though ideally I'd prefer to wait another year first but I seem to be doing good based on reflexes, beginners skill and paying alot of attention to the coach lol.

Yeah I figured I was holding it wrong, ah well.

[eac]

Grips are not a matter of taste. Uhlmann visconti is the one true grip for foil. You can choose your size, and the degree to which you mummify it in tape (although at least mild pumping-up of the pinky is required). But other than that, you're hurting your results.

Edit: And, you're murdering your results in the face if you use a French grip. And you're mutilating them and doing other horrible, unnecessary, inhumane things to them if you use an Italian. You might as well write "DWEEB IN A HOLE" below your name on your lame.

[kalivor]

Grips are not a matter of taste. Uhlmann visconti is the one true grip for foil. You can choose your size, and the degree to which you mummify it in tape (although at least mild pumping-up of the pinky is required). But other than that, you're hurting your results.

Yep. This is why Golubitsky was never very good. Screwed over by having a preference for the modified Belgian grip.

[Craig]

For an example of one of those no-account, can't win anything french grip foilists:

2005 CIP Grand Prix Finals - Le Pechoux (France) uses a french grip in this bout.

He is the exception to the overwhelming trend of the success of pistol grips in foil competition. The french grip allows more of a feeling of the blade than pistol grips when doing things from engagement, but that's now how we fence these days.

Craig

[Gav]

For my university, now and then yes though ideally I'd prefer to wait another year first but I seem to be doing good based on reflexes, beginners skill and paying alot of attention to the coach lol.

I learned using a french grip for about 6 months. One thing it does teach you is not to hang on for dear life. After those 6 months I made a transition to pistol and, aside from mucking about in Epee, I've stuck to pistols since then.

Yeah I figured I was holding it wrong, ah well.

Not sure how you could but talk to your team mates and coach and they'll sort you out.

[Gav]

For an example of one of those no-account, can't win anything french grip foilists:

2005 CIP Grand Prix Finals - Le Pechoux (France) uses a french grip in this bout.

He is the exception to the overwhelming trend of the success of pistol grips in foil competition. The french grip allows more of a feeling of the blade than pistol grips when doing things from engagement, but that's now how we fence these days.

Craig

Is he using a french grip? Doesn't look like it. Is it just the poor quality of the footage?

[eac]

Can you give a time in some video of him where the grip is visibly french?

My first reaction was, it was 2005, no one had any idea what the hell to do on the new timings.

Also, even if one out of the top 20 guys in the world uses a freak grip (which hasn't yet been demonstrated), and the other 19 are using uhlmann visconti, chances are he is at least somewhat freaky in some other way that makes the freakiness of the grip work for him, or maybe makes it not matter, and you have to have some serious cahones, or just be stupid, to claim that you're going to be freaky in the same way and get it to work for you too, rather than doing what the other top 19 guys do.

Edit 2: Golubitsky doesn't count; he was on the old timings. Almost as invalid as arguing that some guy uses a French in epee and therefore we should try it in foil. Also, see above argument about 19 guys.

Edit 3: Out of curiosity, how was it modified?

[Allen Evans]

The french grip allows more of a feeling of the blade than pistol grips when doing things from engagement, but that's now how we fence these days.

This has been advocated time and time again to me (by fencers and coaches) but no one has ever explained to me -- since I don't believe it -- why it should be true.

[passata_sotto]

I would definitely recommend trying the Belgian grip as well as the standard visconti. My younges son who competes the most, developed chronic wrist problems and pain after four years of using the visconti, changed to the LP Belgian grip, and has had minimal issues. His coach had threatened to switch him to a French grip if the problem did not resolve itself but so far so good.

[Superscribe]

It's easier to feel the blade from a grip inline with the blade, with more tang in it, than it is to feel the blade from a grip that has some components inline and others perpendicular (the part you wrap your ring and pinky finger around)?

Just a guess

[King Thunderblast III]

I learned using a french grip for about 6 months. One thing it does teach you is not to hang on for dear life. After those 6 months I made a transition to pistol and, aside from mucking about in Epee, I've stuck to pistols since then.



Not sure how you could but talk to your team mates and coach and they'll sort you out.

Oh no it's completely possible! I can't remember what I was doing wrong (I want to say thumb, but that seems unlikely) and people kept correcting me.

Ah well maybe it is time to say bye to my French grip, my sword is getting a bit battered (cheap Chinese one that it is) and as of next year I want to compete more often. Ah well.

[chinbeard]

If you like the French grip that much, then keep using it. It might actually make you focus more on important things (like distance). That being said, since you fence foil, you will eventually become irritated with it when you're infighting.

[remistress]

I think it's natural to want to stick with what you are comfortable. However, at least from my observation (and opinion of people who have been around longer than even I have) almost *everyone* moves to pistol when they start competing seriously. Be careful you don't chalk up the few times you've fenced with a pistol to your body just adjusting to something new. Remember with all things fencing you "suck" for awhile while your body adjusts to something new and synthesizes it. (At least that's been my experience ).

The fingers hurting thing is somewhat normal too, although it's more often the forearm. I find newer fencers who are transitioning tend to death grip a pistol because with a French they are used to having to hold it tighter
when someone parries. It is a little hard to adjust hand position/point control in the transition at first too.

If you really love your French grip, first talk it over with your coach. They will have the most experience watching you fence. If they agree with the consensus to try a pistol, you should try a few different types. I know a few people who like Belgians because they feel a little more like a French grip than a traditional Visconti.

Another option that I've also seen is taking lessons with a French and fencing in competition and practice with a pistol. This, however, depends on you and your coach's school of thought on that matter. Some like the point control practice in taking lessons with the French, others believe you shouldn't practice (take lessons) with something you're not using to fence with in competition. Talk it over with your coach and good luck!

[Inquartata]

Just curious: What is it about foil that makes an ortho grip so indispensable? There are of course none in sabre, and quite a few people seem to use French grips in epee. What makes foil so essentially different?

[WGH]

Just curious: What is it about foil that makes an ortho grip so indispensable? There are of course none in sabre, and quite a few people seem to use French grips in epee. What makes foil so essentially different?

If you're using the french in epee, you're probably posting and the extra inches can make a great difference with counterattacks. I believe that the concept of right of way makes that advantage far less attractive compared to the extra strength of the pistol grip.

[Inquartata]

And here I was thinking it had to do with flicking or something...

Why is distance less important with ROW? ( We have that in sabre, and a lot of us sort of "post"... )

[6-flick]

my sword is getting a bit battered.

Foil... your foil