Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

sallearmourer · 11-29-2002, 10:45 AM

For you all that use pistol grips handles in epee no tape is allowed on the handles at all. And NO TAPE is allowed on the wires at all. I don't even used tape when I assemble a weapon.
And when I check underneath the bell pad I remove any tape I find but sometime I do forget to check under the pad.

Tim

peircer · 12-01-2002, 02:44 AM

How picky are they at national events about the tape on the grip? All my pistols have a ton of tape on the grip to make them fit my hand better. If I put epoxy instead of the tape would anyone freak out?

Tomas N · 12-02-2002, 08:31 AM

Tim or anyone else,

What's the logic behind the no-tape rule? Doesn't tape only hurt the person using it? For instance, if I tape my grip and then you hit the grip, then you'll get a point. Good for you and bad for me. Also, if I was really sweaty, couldn't my glove ground out if the grip wasn't insulated? If you have to have an insulated grip in foil, why not also is epee?

I think that I'm probably missing the entire point of the no-tape rule.

Tomas

damianip · 12-02-2002, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tomas N
Tim or anyone else,

What's the logic behind the no-tape rule? Doesn't tape only hurt the person using it? For instance, if I tape my grip and then you hit the grip, then you'll get a point. Good for you and bad for me. Also, if I was really sweaty, couldn't my glove ground out if the grip wasn't insulated? If you have to have an insulated grip in foil, why not also is epee?

I think that I'm probably missing the entire point of the no-tape rule.

Tomas

The concern is that tape will hide a switch or some other device to register touches illegally.

I guess that they just ignore that possibility with the French grip. (Look!!!!! Another reason why the French grip is superior for épée

)

Paolo

sallearmourer · 12-02-2002, 09:46 AM

This get even better tape is legal on the french grip in epee but not the pistol grip which is not allowed any tape. My wife and daughter who are national level referee inform the fencers that it
not legal but as the firgure it and discuss with me the possiable of a switch in a pistol grip. They don't card for it but that does it others don't.
So I sit down to built one and it took me a couple of hours of design one that would work and be hard to pick up on a look see. A French grip all of 15 mins.

Have fun

Tim

Manjusri · 12-03-2002, 02:18 PM

I believe its opaque tape that is illegal. Scotch tape to hold the wires in place under the bell is legal.

I have tape on several of my epee handles, since I found, after stripping the paint, that they were too slick for good finger control. I've only had one comment from a director at a circuit or nationals, and she let slide. At a San Diego tournament, once, the weapons were failed at weapons check.

I discussed the issue at length with a high-level director, and his feeling was that it was a rule better left ignored, since the rule is intended to make it hard to hide a switch built into the grip, and really, what is the likelihood of that? If this were really an issue, then why are you allowed to wrap a french handle. Makes no sense.

My solution, is to have at least a couple of weapons with no tape, so if I encounter a stickler for the rules, I can use those.

DHCJr · 12-03-2002, 03:28 PM

First of all it is easy to put a switch in the handle and it is not done frequently, but it is done. It is so easy, that the handle could be completely bare except for some tape on the lower back prong of handle and a switch put in. It doesn’t need tape on the whole handle.

I have detected switches at a number of competitions.

The difference in having a switch in a French versus an orthopedic handle is two-fold. First it is easy for the fencer to know where the switch is so it can be set off at the proper time and second so it will not be set off accidentally, thus making it obvious that there is a switch.

The switch would be put on the lower back prong and if you are fencing the classic style of the thumb and one finger with the others on the side, you will preclude setting it off accidentally. With a French you can easily put in a switch, the problem is the chance of setting it off accidentally rises, while the chance of setting it off at the right time goes down.

epeemike81 · 12-03-2002, 04:10 PM

This is a frequent misconception. The FOC position is this, according to Jon Moss: Tape is NOT illegal! switches are illegal. if as a ref you think the tape conceals a switch, call an armorer. if it DOESN'T conceal a switch, there is nothing wrong with tape.

That having been said, I would never put tape inside my bell, if only for the hassles it would cause.

-m

DHCJr · 12-03-2002, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by epeemike81
This is a frequent misconception. The FOC position is this, according to Jon Moss: Tape is NOT illegal! switches are illegal. if as a ref you think the tape conceals a switch, call an armorer. if it DOESN'T conceal a switch, there is nothing wrong with tape.

That having been said, I would never put tape inside my bell, if only for the hassles it would cause.

-m

You’re absolutely right. This is a frequent misconception, even for the FOC. The SEMI, and the FIE position, according to Dan DeChaine and the rulebook (M4.3) is Tape IS Illegal. The exception is of course clear tape, which could not hide a switch. That particular rule does not disallow switches; it states the handle may not be covered by anything, which could hide a switch. Tape can hide a switch.

epeemike81 · 12-03-2002, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DHCJr
You?re absolutely right. This is a frequent misconception, even for the FOC. The SEMI, and the FIE position, according to Dan DeChaine and the rulebook (M4.3) is Tape IS Illegal. The exception is of course clear tape, which could not hide a switch. That particular rule does not disallow switches; it states the handle may not be covered by anything, which could hide a switch. Tape can hide a switch.

Firstly, that still has no bearing on tape inside the guard, which is what I was talking about. secondly, what we have here is a disagreement about a rules interpretation between the FOC and the armorers. Since it is the FOC's responsibility to interpret the rules, I'm gonna go with them on this one.

-m

veeco · 12-03-2002, 05:57 PM

Yes, but what about tape on the inside of the bell guard, to hold the spaghetti wires in place?

I have been carded in the past at one occasion and told in several others to remove tape inside my bell guard.

I cannot find a rule that specifically says you cannot have tape inside your bell guard, but it seems like there are some misconceptions in this area of the rules as well...

DHCJr · 12-03-2002, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by veeco
Yes, but what about tape on the inside of the bell guard, to hold the spaghetti wires in place?

I have been carded in the past at one occasion and told in several others to remove tape inside my bell guard.

I cannot find a rule that specifically says you cannot have tape inside your bell guard, but it seems like there are some misconceptions in this area of the rules as well...

Rule M5.2 2nd paragraph is the rule that covers that, “The connections must be so arranged that it is impossible for the fencer to break or make contacts while fencing.” What this means they must be able to check that you do not have a switch, which is very easy to do. A small piece of cloth tape with a smaller piece of aluminum tape, strip the spaghetti and wires at that point and cover with another cloth tape. I felt this rule would also preclude tape in the handle, but at an international tournament a SEMI representative (not Dan) stated that since the circuit is already closed in Foil and you could not achieve a touch, this was not an issue. I will let others better than me judge that.

veeco · 12-03-2002, 08:21 PM

Yes, but we are talking about epee here, so that problem still applies.

Actually, this must be the reason why I saw tape inside foils' guards and not on epees'...

thanks

DHCJr · 12-03-2002, 08:52 PM

Sorry, yes I was talking about Epee. It has always interested me in the differences in the rules for the weapon. For example M-10 for Foil, “…, which permanently connects the point to the corresponding socket inside the guard.” This was originally written in 1956 and has never been changed even though there is only one connector (Camamarri) that is currently manufactured, that I know of, at the present time that conforms to this rule. The only other one that I know of that was ever conformed was the Leon Paul from the 50’s and early 60’s. The current Leon Paul, Prieur, Uhlmann, Alstar, Italian Sport, etc. do not have a permanent connection. They have a screw or nut. The FIE knows about it, but it is one of those rules, they love for the idiosyncrasies.

Aren’t you glad, they don’t have a similar rule for Epee?

Purple Fencer · 12-03-2002, 10:02 PM

If you value your sanity, do NOT ask Donald about the minimum length of the blade rule...

DHCJr · 12-03-2002, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Purple Fencer
If you value your sanity, do NOT ask Donald about the minimum length of the blade rule...

I can categorically state their is no rule that specifically states there is a minimum length on the blade. But there is a minimum length.

Knowing the rules is not the same as understanding the rules. Now if I only could get the T and O rules down, I might become better than the third best Armorer within a hundred miles of where I live.

DamedEscrime · 12-03-2002, 10:17 PM

OKay.. i am so glad you started this thread. I did a tourney at NorthWestern U and questioned that the refs were not looking under the pad, instead they were concerned with the insulation covering all the wire to the socket. I was informed rather disgruntledly by the ref that there was no rule about tape under the pad.....geezzzzzz... am i gonna argue when i dont have the bookin front of me? Well, just to be on the safe side...no tape under any pads if Ive worked on an epee.
Actually the only time I place tape under the pad is to hold the wire in place while I work on it. Then it is removed.