Problem with a parent's spectating

[PretAllez]

Hello to everyone;
I'm a (relatively) new fencing-parent whose son fences foil. I've been "lurking" for a few months now, so I thought it was about time I came clean and came on board.

Now that I understand the sport a little better, I really enjoy attending tournaments and spectating, but I'm still too nervous (excited ?) to be by the piste to watch my son fence (even though he's been fencing competitively for 3-4 years now).

My fear is that he'll pick up my nervousness/excitement, even subconciously, and that this might prevent him from doing his best.
Is this fear reasonable? or is he so focused that he doesn't even know I'm there?
He's a pretty experienced competitor and I have learned to limit my comments to the occasional "whoohoo, good job" from the bleachers when he gets the point. Depending on the venue, I may not be able to watch at all, due to a lack of space.
He says that he doesn't care if I watch or not, but then again, that's what you'd expect a teenager to say....

[MdA]

You know your son better than anybody. Be supportive and positive. Keep it fun...if you feel like you're hovering..."helicopter parent"....then step out for a few bouts.

In other words, if you feel like you are making him nervous than you probably are...

My parents came to watch me at the Chicagoland Open...years ago. I had started achieving some success at tournaments without them. This was one of the first big ones they came to see....I did terrible in the preliminary rounds and was nearly eliminated. My coach told them to leave and they did....they came back when I was in the finals......I never had a problem with them watching after that.

[Purple Fencer]

You're not alone in this...most parent I know in your position watch from across the gym (one routinely brought binoculars).

[oldguy]

My kids have always been unpredictable. Although generally, they don't seem to care how close I am, they expect me to watch. When I least expect it, and there is no coach around, I might get, "any advice?" I generally reply with an admonishment from a coach that has given both of the boys lessons, "Move feet. All time, move feet."

[Bonehead]

In my experience, it was always nice when I had someone interested in how well I did, but I couldn't stand it if I felt obligated to perform for them.

Personally, I had enough expectation on myself, that if there was someone I felt like I was letting down I would be bothered by it.

My parents went the other route and kept saying things like "Don't worry if you don't do win this one" even if it was a bout I was 110% sure that I would win. That was kind of annoying, but not devastating.

The most embarrassing parental experiences always involved them cheering at inappropriate times. Sometimes they would cheer when I'm beating up some kid who had never fenced before. "Attack touche, 13-2" "YEAH! NICE TOUCHE".. meanwhile the kids mother "Don't worry, you can get the next one".

And by far the worst, is during an important bout, hearing your parents cheer when your opponent scores a point on you. Just Awful. Now you're 1 more point down and you're parents are idiots. Great.

So I guess my advice is try to learn a little bit about the sport, so you can at least tell who is scoring. Don't get so involved that your son feels as though he "owes it too you" to perform, let him feel as though it's up to him whether he wins or loses and both are just fine outcomes to you.

And don't be his coach. Don't tell him he should be doing a particular action or training. And don't be the enforcer of the coach either; "Didn't the coach say you should be doing this?" doesn't help coming from a parent.

Finally the best thing that my parents ever did was make damn sure I was polite. They didn't care if I won or lost, but if I acted like a jackass, didn't shake hands, screamed (outside of a "eh-la" type thing), and didn't treat the people around me with the utmost respect, I would be hearing about it.

[Rockstar44]

Originally Posted by bonehead

in my experience, it was always nice when i had someone interested in how well i did, but i couldn't stand it if i felt obligated to perform for them.

Personally, i had enough expectation on myself, that if there was someone i felt like i was letting down i would be bothered by it.

My parents went the other route and kept saying things like "don't worry if you don't do win this one" even if it was a bout i was 110% sure that i would win. That was kind of annoying, but not devastating.

The most embarrassing parental experiences always involved them cheering at inappropriate times. Sometimes they would cheer when i'm beating up some kid who had never fenced before. "attack touche, 13-2" "yeah! Nice touche".. Meanwhile the kids mother "don't worry, you can get the next one".

And by far the worst, is during an important bout, hearing your parents cheer when your opponent scores a point on you. Just awful. Now you're 1 more point down and you're parents are idiots. Great.

So i guess my advice is try to learn a little bit about the sport, so you can at least tell who is scoring. Don't get so involved that your son feels as though he "owes it too you" to perform, let him feel as though it's up to him whether he wins or loses and both are just fine outcomes to you.

And don't be his coach. Don't tell him he should be doing a particular action or training. And don't be the enforcer of the coach either; "didn't the coach say you should be doing this?" doesn't help coming from a parent.

Finally the best thing that my parents ever did was make damn sure i was polite. They didn't care if i won or lost, but if i acted like a jackass, didn't shake hands, screamed (outside of a "eh-la" type thing), and didn't treat the people around me with the utmost respect, i would be hearing about it.

This!

[Fencergrl]

I coach beginners. I always love it when a fencer's parent takes up fencing because they not only understand their kid, but the sport as well. For many parents, learning fencing is not only a form of exercise, but a way to connect with their kid.

[PretAllez]

Thank you to everyone for the advice; it's nice to know I'm not alone

Fortunately, although my husband is not from a fencing background either, he usually drives/accompanies our son and other team members to tournaments (which our coaches can rarely attend) and he is always very calm, positive, cool and collected, (certainly my better half... in this area at least). We have always stressed having fun, and when we go away to tournaments, we try to schedule activities other than fencing, such as visits with family, shopping, special dinners or sightseeing whenever we can.

Our expectations have always been quite clear: do your best and, whether you win or lose, as long as you learn from the experience, you have "won". We have tried to emphasize setting internal goals (fencing to the best of your ability) rather than external ones (winning), so that continued improvement in mastering a very complex set of skills becomes its own reward (sort of like learning to play an instrument). However, this raises challenges as well (for another post, I think.... how do you clearly define personal goals and benchmarks in fencing? it's not like athletics or swimming where you can challenge yourself to improve your best time i.e. how can you tell that you are fencing to the best of your ability without necessarily referring to how well your opponents are doing (a factor over which you have little control).

Naturally, we share in his happiness when he wins, but we have learned not to talk to him when he is disappointed in his results; he hates having us say "I thought you fenced well", when he clearly feels differently. (Of course, he has a valid point: as "newbies" to fencing," and parents on top of that, what do we know).

Uh, in my albeit limited experience, good sportsmanship and being polite are expected behaviours in fencing (and in our household), and shortcomings in this area always carry consequences (at least at our end they do!!!); that's one of the reasons why my son doesn't play hockey......

Thanks again

[ApAperture]

Originally Posted by PretAllez

Is this fear reasonable?

He says that he doesn't care if I watch or not, but then again, that's what you'd expect a teenager to say....

I think its just normal for parents to be nervous for their children. My mom did when I was doing something in public when I was younger (speech, sing, etc).

I've known a fencing mom who still gets nervous when she watches her daughter fence, even though her daughter is pretty darn good and has been competing for a while. (:

BTW, if you're in doubt if he cares or not, ask him again. If he tells you he doesn't care, maybe he really doesn't care. When I was a teenager, a really bratty one at that, I'd tell my parents when I don't want them to watch.

Lastly... have fun.

[TBean]

In a twenty-year fencing career with lots of kids and parents - I have known many a parent who can only watch their child from across the room, I have know many a child who wished their parent was in another state when they fenced and had to live with across the room, I have known coaches who send parents across the room so their kid could fence, I have known kids who needed a parent there no matter what they did, and kids who could deal with anything. It is simply a matter of who you are, who your child is and what you can both live with.

Kids pick-up on what their parents feel - as well as you know them, they know you too - if you think what you feel might be a problem, then you are probably correct. They can pick your voice out of crowd without even knowing that they are doing it. Honestly, if your husband is the calm, cool and collected member of the family then it is perhaps best if he is the one who remains by the strip. If that is not always an option, find something to do to help calm you - knit while watch (I know a parent who took this up just to release her anxiety), get a pool sheet and keep track of the score for yourself - something to channel your energy. That will help.

If it makes you feel better most parents wrestle with how to handle this - even those who have been at this many years. The fact you are aware of your feelings, and are thinking how they can affect your child is a huge step in managing the situation.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by PretAllez

Thank you to everyone for the advice; it's nice to know I'm not alone

Fortunately, although my husband is not from a fencing background either, he usually drives/accompanies our son and other team members to tournaments (which our coaches can rarely attend) and he is always very calm, positive, cool and collected, (certainly my better half... in this area at least). We have always stressed having fun, and when we go away to tournaments, we try to schedule activities other than fencing, such as visits with family, shopping, special dinners or sightseeing whenever we can.

Our expectations have always been quite clear: do your best and, whether you win or lose, as long as you learn from the experience, you have "won". We have tried to emphasize setting internal goals (fencing to the best of your ability) rather than external ones (winning), so that continued improvement in mastering a very complex set of skills becomes its own reward (sort of like learning to play an instrument). However, this raises challenges as well (for another post, I think.... how do you clearly define personal goals and benchmarks in fencing? it's not like athletics or swimming where you can challenge yourself to improve your best time i.e. how can you tell that you are fencing to the best of your ability without necessarily referring to how well your opponents are doing (a factor over which you have little control).

Naturally, we share in his happiness when he wins, but we have learned not to talk to him when he is disappointed in his results; he hates having us say "I thought you fenced well", when he clearly feels differently. (Of course, he has a valid point: as "newbies" to fencing," and parents on top of that, what do we know).

Uh, in my albeit limited experience, good sportsmanship and being polite are expected behaviours in fencing (and in our household), and shortcomings in this area always carry consequences (at least at our end they do!!!); that's one of the reasons why my son doesn't play hockey......

Thanks again

ask your son and be clear that you want him to do well and will do anything that he asks. do what he asks.

its that simple. some people respond well to their parents' presence, some people don't.

[Mac A. Bee]

Originally Posted by PretAllez

...do your best and, whether you win or lose, as long as you learn from the experience, you have "won". We have tried to emphasize setting internal goals (fencing to the best of your ability) rather than external ones (winning).... how do you clearly define personal goals and benchmarks in fencing?...he hates having us say "I thought you fenced well"

The self-esteem movement was discredited by its promulgator. Fencing's improvement benchmark is winning - be it a touch against someone who's always "bageled" you, scoring more touches than you've scored before, beating someone who previously beat you, beating a higher-rated or -ranked opponent.

Of course your son hates "you fenced well." He knows it's false praise.

[PretAllez]

just ask the figure skater who wins but only lands four out of six jumps. The winner may have performed better than the others, but you can bet that he is not satisfied with his performance.

I wasn't thinking of benchmarks in terms of self-esteem, rather in terms of mastering the skill (God forbid my son's self-esteem rest on his success in fencing... that is the LAST thing I would want ... i.e. he is much more than a fencer!!! Awesome fencer ≠ awesome human being (necessarily)

No, I was thinking more in terms of objectively defining successful fencing, because I know that there are times when my son has come in tenth, but has been relatively happy with his overall performance, given the level of competition, and other times when he has won, but has not been very satisfied with his performance. So clearly for him, the final score is not the only factor; the satisfaction felt is directly proportional to the challenge, and the effort expended, (and being able to score with that ever-elusive flick!)

The problem is having to define that challenge as relative to his opponent's competence on the day. In swimming you can objectively say " you beat your personal best time, ergo, you swam well today". This is not false praise, it is an objective statement of fact. Is there no equivalent in fencing? "You fenced well: you beat Fencer X in the pools and you've never beaten him before" . But is there any way to objectively determine that Fencer X fenced his best that day? Not really: hence the need to define personal goals and standards against which to measure performance in order to focus on something you can control, i.e. fencing well (however you define that).

[prototoast]

Okay, so as others have said, just about every parent feels the same way you do. Here's the important thing, DO NOT ask your kid if he wants you watching or not during a competition. The parents who spend the whole competition asking their kids "am I making you nervous? Do you want me to go?" are far, far more disruptive than the ones who just suck it up and deal with it. If your kid wants you gone, he'll tell you (if he's old enough) and if not, you can ask him once, and only once at a time prior to the competition.

Your kid has enough to think about when he's fencing, don't make him think for you too.

[Fiat Slug]

Originally Posted by PretAllez

The problem is having to define that challenge as relative to his opponent's competence on the day. In swimming you can objectively say " you beat your personal best time, ergo, you swam well today". This is not false praise, it is an objective statement of fact. Is there no equivalent in fencing? "You fenced well: you beat Fencer X in the pools and you've never beaten him before" . But is there any way to objectively determine that Fencer X fenced his best that day? Not really: hence the need to define personal goals and standards against which to measure performance in order to focus on something you can control, i.e. fencing well (however you define that).

You are right that it's not easy to define personal challenges in fencing. For me, I often establish goals such as scoring X touches against A-rated fencers, Y touches against B-rated, etc. I also set goals such as winning x% of pool bouts. Sometimes, I give myself a goal such as finishing in the top 8. I realize that this final type of goal may not always be meaningful but it's an easily measurable goal.

.

[pacer]

I understand the nervousness in watching one's kid compete. Why do you think I picked the name "pacer"? I just had to walk away and around and back and forth at some early tournaments. Then I took up fencing so I could join in the fun.

[Bonehead]

You can't gauge progress on winning or losing. In every fencing bout there are 3 people who have control on the final score, and two of the aren't you. Maybe your opponent is fencing the best they ever have, maybe the ref is screwing you, who knows. With regards to measuring your own performance the only thing that matters is how you fence.

For my students I tell them to ignore the score completely. I give them jobs to do, and they know if they do them or don't. In tournament, I try to make their job something that is there best bet for winning cleanly, or if they probably won't win, for scoring as many points as possible.

If they do their job and lose, I'm happy, and for the most part, since they trust me to know what's going on, they trust that they did their best.

If they win but don't do their job then I'm grumpy, and even though their happy, I'm grumpy, and I let them know it. Generally this is a bout that they would have won anyway so sometimes I sort of let them off easily, but I always make it clear that not doing their job won't fly in the tougher bouts.

So as the coach, I take it as my job to gauge their performance, and through this process teach them to gauge their own performance.

But once again, I would stress that this is NOT the parents job. I've heard many parents who have taken a role to coach their kids, which the exception of 1 (Who happened to be an N level ref, a fencer himself, and father to national champion, and another Junior National Champion), all of the parents have said things that are either flat out wrong, or at very best unhelpful to for the kids to hear.

Let him (or his coach) decide whether to be happy or unhappy with his performance.

[PretAllez]

Originally Posted by Bonehead

So as the coach, I take it as my job to gauge their performance, and through this process teach them to gauge their own performance.

But once again, I would stress that this is NOT the parents job. I've heard many parents who have taken a role to coach their kids, which the exception of 1 (Who happened to be an N level ref, a fencer himself, and father to national champion, and another Junior National Champion), all of the parents have said things that are either flat out wrong, or at very best unhelpful to for the kids to hear.

Let him (or his coach) decide whether to be happy or unhappy with his performance.

Of course, you are absolutely right. This makes a lot of sense to me... Thanks for all the advice.

I have decided to quietly watch from afar, stay positive, make sure he is fed and watered, and enjoy the experience ... because they do grow up SO fast...

[irishfolker]

Originally Posted by PretAllez

enjoy the experience ... because they do grow up SO fast...

qft

(another dad)

[piste off]

Originally Posted by PretAllez

...

My fear is that he'll pick up my nervousness/excitement, even subconciously, and that this might prevent him from doing his best.
Is this fear reasonable? or is he so focused that he doesn't even know I'm there?
He's a pretty experienced competitor and I have learned to limit my comments to the occasional "whoohoo, good job" from the bleachers when he gets the point. Depending on the venue, I may not be able to watch at all, due to a lack of space.
He says that he doesn't care if I watch or not, but then again, that's what you'd expect a teenager to say....

Basically, you should leave him alone. One of the most important things a fencer can learn is self-sufficiency.

I would not worry about projecting nervousness, since I think some degree of nervousness is a good thing (I myself never ever get nervous, and this is a problem except when a very big bout is on the line).

Vocal support is generally OK, as either they will tune it out or it will help - and if only the former it will certainly help you and not hurt him.

R-