Sorry, Bonehead, the answer to your question is totally outside the scope of my very limited knowledge of fencing...
and if it's a joke (i.e. " Son, could you go get me a bucket of elbow grease..."), well, what can I say, you got me....
"My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." Jack Layton (1950-2011) RIP
There's a poster with a a fencer in the most static looking posed lunge you've ever seen with rainbow streaks coming out the back of him, and it say's "Touché!" on it. Apparently the guy in the picture is Paul Apsimon. It's a really common poster.
Ha!! I've seen that poster, but I never realized who it was...
Yes then, I guess he does fence with the "rainbow lunge" ... and Parvis.
Are your friends originally from Alberta?
"My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." Jack Layton (1950-2011) RIP
I had a feeling you were referring to that person in that post but I could not be sure...
Fencing seems to be a small world (esp Canadian fencing)
Yes, they are very helpful, and this contributes to one of the most positive aspects of this club ... that the older fencers are great mentors to the younger ones, both on and off the piste. IMO, they set a really good example, which then trickles down to the youngest, and creates a friendly, supportive club atmosphere. I think this is something that many may take for granted, but it's really important from a parent's perspective, especially during the teenage years when kids often seek to emulate older teens and young adults.
(That's been our experience so far, anyway)
(Yet another reason my son does not play hockey... very little inter-age-group contact)
"My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." Jack Layton (1950-2011) RIP
There's a poster with a a fencer in the most static looking posed lunge you've ever seen with rainbow streaks coming out the back of him, and it say's "Touché!" on it. Apparently the guy in the picture is Paul Apsimon. It's a really common poster.
So Rainbow Lunge = Paul Apsimon
Has a nice ring to it... lmao. Add that to the list of nicknames Paul has no idea he has. Incidentally, take a look at the picture I attached, courtesy of PretAllez's son - our (somewhat) mobile strip coach that we decided to carry around with us this year at a team tournament. We had intended to execute him immediately following the last hit in the final but it ended up being a lot closer than we thought it was going to be and I think we were all just too busy praying we would win to remember to decapitate him.
Anyway, I think as a parent you have to evaluate your own kids' responses to your being there/not being there. Personally I don't really like having my parents watch me because they get extremely nervous and it's hard not to absorb some of their emotions. You know your son better than anyone, but I think it's fair to say he's a little hard on himself a lot of the time and I think that having people he has emotional attachment to right there next to him might contribute to stress more than anything. He seems like the type of person who would probably be best off having someone calm that he trusts there with him to talk him through problems and pretty much nobody else. I definitely know that I don't like having more than a couple of people there.
It takes a pretty cool person to hide their stress/excitement when standing at the strip, and showing too much of either can be really detrimental to a fencer's psychology. Sometimes when I am coaching some of the younger guys or my girlfriend I am going absolutely insane trying to keep myself perfectly calm-looking while I self destruct mentally, lol!
I think that your plan of showing support from a moderate distance is the way to go. My girlfriend and I both have a habit of lashing out in a completely unreasonable fashion at parents/each other when we are fencing, and I'd hate to talk someone into subjecting themselves to that!
Thanks for the pic! And the post
(even though I own the camera I never get to see the pics....)
"My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." Jack Layton (1950-2011) RIP
I’m afraid I disagree with most people’s advice here – I say stand by the strip and watch your son fence. Don’t cheat yourself out of the experience of watching and learning from your son’s fencing. After enough competitions, you’ll be able to have intelligent conversations with him about fencing. I’m not talking about coaching or giving false complements, but conversation. You can talk about…good pool/difficult pool, obnoxious coach, great/lousy ref, the screamer, whatever. The discussion probably won’t take place right after a disappointing loss, but after some good fencing he might be happy to go on about the experience. You’ll never have that conversation if you’re sitting on the other side of the room. Don’t be intimidated by a tournament. So what if you’re nervous? It’s your son. Stand there quietly in support of him.
...After enough competitions, you’ll be able to have intelligent conversations You can talk about…great/lousy ref
A discussion about a "lousy" ref is *not* an intelligent conversation, nor is it one you should have with your fencer. Rather, discuss *why* the ref didn't see-hear-call your fencer's actions, what can be appealed and how, etc. Refer him to this month's "American Fencing"'s Baltimore Fencing Club's coach Bruce Milligan's "Fencing Tips" excellent article's points re: "The Ref is Your Friend."
A discussion about a "lousy" ref is *not* an intelligent conversation, nor is it one you should have with your fencer. Rather, discuss *why* the ref didn't see-hear-call your fencer's actions, what can be appealed and how, etc. Refer him to this month's "American Fencing"'s Baltimore Fencing Club's coach Bruce Milligan's "Fencing Tips" excellent article's points re: "The Ref is Your Friend."
Whoa. A little bit presumptuous of you to assume that a parent will never be able to hold an intelligent - I said intelligent not whining - conversation with a fencer about refereeing, isn't it? In the 10 years that I have watched fencing tournaments I have seen plenty of lousy refs. And I have had intelligent conversations with my kid about - self-reffing, why didn't the division/section/club/NCAA/USFA get better refs, why foil refs assigned to sabre and vice versa, as well as noting how good it was to have Iana Dakova, Charlie Washborn, Wes Glon, etc.
The point of my answer was if parents watch fencing, they not only experience something important to their children, but they will also become educated in the sport. Then they have intelligent conversations. Your assumption that parents and fencers are only capable of blaming a loss on a referee is just b.s.
Whoa. A little bit presumptuous of you to assume that a parent will never be able to hold an intelligent - I said intelligent not whining - conversation with a fencer about refereeing, isn't it?
No. It's really not. Well, let me clarify; a parent will almost certainly be able hold an intelligent conversation with their child about fencing, but they will almost certainly not be able to hold an educated conversation about fencing.
That isn't to say that the parent can't be involved in fencing, or even know quite a bit about the sport. What is unlikely is that the parent will know as much, or even a quarter as much, as the coach.
The problem is that parents, almost by definition, hold a position of authority over their children, one that obviously supersedes the authority of the coach. Because of this it's not possible for a parent to have a conversation on equal terms with their child, even though the child probably knows more about fencing, even if they can't necessarily vocalize it. And more worrisome the child is not likely able to defer to the authority of the coach, since the authority of the parent overrides it.
So in the end, any sort of conversation about the child's fencing is more likely damaging to the child's improvement than it is helpful.
The point of my answer was if parents watch fencing, they not only experience something important to their children, but they will also become educated in the sport. Then they have intelligent conversations. Your assumption that parents and fencers are only capable of blaming a loss on a referee is just b.s.
I agree. Most parents know better than to ever blame the loss on the referee (It's never the referees fault. And if it is the referees fault, it doesn't help the fencer to point this out). And it's great that a parent would want to watch, and even discuss the sport.
What I would suggest, is watch from a distance and not get too involved, because there is enough pressure on any fencer as it is, rather than having someone else that they can let down.
And any conversations about fencing should probably not be about the child's fencing, but the sport in general "How do you feel about Joppichs fencing?", "What's your favourite action?".
And if the child does bring up their fencing "I fenced like **** today". Don't ever offer an opinion, just offer an open ear. "Why do you think that?".
The parents opinion of the child's fencing (unless you're a coach of some sort) is completely irrelevant and flat out wrong as often as it's right (Just like the child's opinion of their own fencing is wrong as often as it's right).
What I would suggest, is watch from a distance and not get too involved, because there is enough pressure on any fencer as it is, rather than having someone else that they can let down.
And any conversations about fencing should probably not be about the child's fencing, but the sport in general "How do you feel about Joppichs fencing?", "What's your favourite action?".
And if the child does bring up their fencing "I fenced like **** today". Don't ever offer an opinion, just offer an open ear. "Why do you think that?".
The parents opinion of the child's fencing (unless you're a coach of some sort) is completely irrelevant and flat out wrong as often as it's right (Just like the child's opinion of their own fencing is wrong as often as it's right).
First, full disclosure – my kid is no longer a kid. Despite me not following any of your rules for parents’ behavior, he turned into a confident adult who makes mature decisions concerning fencing. So when I talk about kids now, I’m talking about hypothetical kids, not my own.
Now, to borrow a metaphor from another sport – let’s level the playing field.
You feel entitled to tell - oops, you said suggest - to parents that they watch from a distance, not get too involved, only talk about fencing in general – never the kid’s fencing specifically, and never, ever offer an opinion…unless the parent is a coach of some sort. And I feel entitled to tell you – or suggest to you – that you stay away from kids, don’t talk about parenting, and never ever offer an opinion concerning a parent’s role in fencing. That is, unless you are a parent of some sort.
Fair enough?
If you want to discuss being a fencing parent, first take that ugly stereotype of the obnoxious pushy parent out of your head. When the original poster said she was nervous, way too many non-parents, including you, suggested she make herself scarce, hide on the other side of the room, and not talk or cheer for her kid. But parents told her to respect what her kid wants, to support him by doing what makes him comfortable, and advised her not to be nervous and afraid of tournaments. Parents know their kids and know that every kid's comfort level is different.
And while I’m at it, let’s talk about the elephant in the room - money, parents' money. It appears that you are a coach, so perhaps parents pay you. They also pay for clubs, weapons, masks, jackets, hotel rooms, plane tickets, registration fees and venue hot dogs. When the airlines lose a bag, they run from vendor to vendor with their credit cards. When a weapon breaks during a competition, they dash to armourers, dollar bills in hand. They drive miles and miles to clubs, tournaments, camps, and lessons. They do it through bad weather and after an exhausting week of work. They wash whites at 1 o’clock in the morning and scour cities they know nothing about in search of a convenience store with gatorade. They tell anyone who will listen about the come-from-behind 15-14 victory and keep quiet about their own sense of loss over a defeat.
And while I’m at it, let’s talk about the elephant in the room - money, parents' money. It appears that you are a coach, so perhaps parents pay you. They also pay for clubs, weapons, masks, jackets, hotel rooms, plane tickets, registration fees and venue hot dogs. When the airlines lose a bag, they run from vendor to vendor with their credit cards. When a weapon breaks during a competition, they dash to armourers, dollar bills in hand. They drive miles and miles to clubs, tournaments, camps, and lessons. They do it through bad weather and after an exhausting week of work. They wash whites at 1 o’clock in the morning and scour cities they know nothing about in search of a convenience store with gatorade. They tell anyone who will listen about the come-from-behind 15-14 victory and keep quiet about their own sense of loss over a defeat.
And you tell parents not to get involved?
This is so true, and so well put. Let's none of us forget this. It is, however, only a sidebar to the discussion at hand.
Originally Posted by Bonehead
The problem is that parents, almost by definition, hold a position of authority over their children, one that obviously supersedes the authority of the coach. Because of this it's not possible for a parent to have a conversation on equal terms with their child, even though the child probably knows more about fencing, even if they can't necessarily vocalize it. And more worrisome the child is not likely able to defer to the authority of the coach, since the authority of the parent overrides it.
This is also so true, although not quite so eloquently stated. But, try to shake off some of the defensiveness and read it again. He's right.
And, your insinuation that since he's not a parent (we know this?) he doesn't know kids is really unfair.
What he is trying to tell you is that a good coach knows how to coach. And, unfortunately, a big part of coaching consists of circumventing the (unintentional) negative influences of the parents' "help". He has got to balance that against the hammer of "the elephant in the room". It's a pretty tough job.
Originally Posted by Bonehead
What I would suggest, is watch from a distance and not get too involved, because there is enough pressure on any fencer as it is, rather than having someone else that they can let down.
This is the nitty gritty of it right here, and this is the thing that almost no parents get. A child fencer is performing for three (four) people when he gets out on the strip. His parents, his coach, and himself. When the feedback that he gets from each of these conflicts, it hurts his fencing and is emotionally traumatic. When it comes to fencing performance, it is almost always best for parents to defer to the coach's assessment. Parents should encourage and support, but only generally supply feedback to the fencer.
In closing, my "full disclosure". Like many of us, I started out as a fencing parent. I was the parent of a little kid, then a teenager, then a confident adult who makes mature decisions concerning fencing. I have also served as a coach and a sometimes referee. And, I am also a fencer. I have seen this issue from all sides.
What the coaches are saying is that you should let them take care of your child's fencing needs, and you should take care of your child's emotional needs.
And, your insinuation that since he's not a parent (we know this?) he doesn't know kids is really unfair.
Lighten up and let them do their jobs.
I guess I should have used a sarcasm smiley - saying this is unfair was one of my points. Of course people who don't have children can teach, coach, fence with kids. But by the same reasoning (that's the level playing field) parents who aren't coaches can watch their kids fence. You, Bonehead, or any coach should not tell a parent that he or she can not watch their kid fence.
My husband gives music lessons - at a very high level, not your bang-on-the-piano teacher. He does not prefer that parents sit in on lessons, though they can. He has never kept a parent from a recital or concert. Parents would be outraged if they couldn't hear their kid play. So why is it that coaches think they can tell parents not to watch their kids fence? Using the same analogy, some people never learn to perform music, only play it. Put them on a stage and adrenelin shoots that measured practice out the window. If you have a kid who you are protecting from having to fence in front of his mother, how is that kid ever going to fence at the next level?
Look, I didn't intend to come across as so angry. But when and why did being a fencing parent become so untrustworthy? In the 10-12 years that I was in this position, I never interfered with a coach. And of the numerous coaches that I have dealt with, none ever suggested that I could not watch.
Aside to Bonehead - about me being scary - Whattheheck! If I had known I had that affect on people ten years ago, I would have picked up a sabre.
Sorry Fencing Mom, that comment was a little bit tongue in cheek.
I'm not a parent. I don't know the first thing about parenting. And I would never insinuate that a coaches prerogative to help the fencer improve even comes close to being as important as the parents right/responsibility to be involved in their child's life.
I teach people how to play a game; parents teach children how to be good human beings. There is obviously no comparison.
And I also would never intend to suggest that the hundreds of hours spent feeding, clothing, transporting, and generally loving their child can be compared to simply coaching a fencer.
If a fencer isn't happy, well fed, emotionally balanced, and physically at the tournaments, with all their equipment, with a coach who is paid, then there is no fencer. So obviously the parents role in the parents role in fencing is critical and far more important than the coaches role of simply honing skills.
But what I would suggest is that the coaches role is a specialized part of that. Fencing is a strangely nuanced sport that puts a lot more cognitive pressure on an athlete than most other sports.
Once again I'm not a parent, but I have been a child fencer. Having a parent at the piste cheering has always been a source of distraction and frustration for me, because all of a sudden "My Investors" we're watching, and cheering (often at inappropriate times). And often they would say intentionally helpful things, which were counter productive.
As for conversation of piste, my parents didn't often talk about my fencing specifically unless I brought it up; but I have heard many parents have similar conversations with their kids. Almost inevitably the parent lets slip something that is HUGELY counter productive.
Either something that reminds the fencer that they are infinitely indebted to their parents; "Well I'm surprised that you didn't make it through poules. That was an expensive 3 hours". Or something that may be technically incorrect "You looked really timid on piste, why didn't you attack more?" (perhaps the fencer has a legitimately defensive game). Or something like a comment about a bad referee that may be true but is useless for the fencer to hear.
And it's completely different coming from a parent than someone else. If another fencer says something like that too me, I can easily shrug it off. But if the person who I owe so much too, and have been taking their words as gospel for the larger portion of my life says something to me, I kind of have to respect it.
And I don't mean to say don't watch, or don't be involved, because once again, parents involvement is obviously critical to the success of an athlete. I only mean to say that a parent should be careful with involvement.
Talk about other fencers. Talk about other bouts. Or even talk about the child's bouts. Just don't attempt to correct the fencers technical performance. That is the one thing that coach is the coaches speciality.
It's interesting that you got a different impression than I did.
Here's what I saw: Posts 1-18 The original poster didn't feel comfortable being near her kid because she didn't want to make him more nervous with her nervousness. I got the feeling she walked away from this thread feeling that what she was already doing was okay and to trust what she feels to be the right thing to do.
Based on other posts I've seen from PretAllez, no one pushes her around and she made her own decision on this. It's not the decision you or I would have made, but I respect her ability to decide what's best for her.
The rest of the posts 19-current has been some discussion about fencing in Eastern Canada & your argument with Bonehead.
I think most people were not necessarily "telling her to stand across the room" but supporting her in her own decision.
Last edited by Fencergrl; 01-26-2010 at 02:01 PM.
Beer, it's whats for dinner! ~ a young snowboarding Canadian The meek don't want it! ~ sticker on a rock band's guitar
Now, to borrow a metaphor from another sport – let’s level the playing field.
You feel entitled to tell - oops, you said suggest - to parents that they watch from a distance, not get too involved, only talk about fencing in general – never the kid’s fencing specifically, and never, ever offer an opinion…unless the parent is a coach of some sort. And I feel entitled to tell you – or suggest to you – that you stay away from kids, don’t talk about parenting, and never ever offer an opinion concerning a parent’s role in fencing. That is, unless you are a parent of some sort.
Fair enough?
So you think that Bonehead, an internationally competitive fencer who also has experience coaching kids, and competing with a parent watching, has nothing to offer on the effects of a parent's spectating on a competing fencer? What exactly are your criteria for someone who is allowed to comment on this? I would love an answer because right now this just looks like a mean spirited comment :S
I'm also an internationally competitive fencer who coaches a lot of younger fencers (including, at times, the original poster's son), a lot of whom have parents watching when they compete. I also have a girlfriend of several years who is on the Sr national team and has parents watch her. I also have extensively discussed this topic with two of my coaches, one of which was our Olympic team leader in 2000 and is our current national coach for WF, and one of which has coached many Olympic athletes, the Olympic team in Sidney, medalists at World Championships, and his daughter (also an Olympian). This makes me feel as though I have sufficient reason to offer some comments. However, if you disagree on the basis that I don't have kids (thank god) then feel free to stop reading.
Both of them tell me to stay the hell away from the strip when my girlfriend is competing, even though I used to coach her extensively (and with good results). They also tell parents to keep their mouths shut when it comes to fencing. It took me a long time to swallow but it's good advice. Quite simply, there are just too many emotions and weird relationship dynamics for it to be a good idea (unless maybe no other coach is present, the fencers/parents have discussed EXACTLY what to say beforehand, and the parent has experience coaching high level athletes).
I am usually a really level headed guy. When my parents/gf try and talk to me in the heat of the moment in competition I lose control of my emotions in a way that is otherwise completely foreign to me. I am a complete asshole for no reason whatsoever, even though I know they are just there to help. My girlfriend is the same way with her parents. Even if we sit down before the event and talk about how we are going to interact it never works out. The better I get and the more emotionally involved I get in bouts the worse it gets. I love having my parents or girlfriend there watching, showing support, cheering generally, helping me with equipment and stuff. Those kinds of things are awesome ways to show support and improve the overall positivity of a fencer (the importance of which cannot be overstated IMO).
At the end of the day nobody will be able to convince me that a parent has MORE to offer regarding fencing than the fencer's coach. It just makes no sense to me. Therefore, IMO, the parent should let the coach do the coaching. Things like buying plane tickets, paying for equipment, etc, are things that parents deserve tremendous thanks and recognition for. They don't make a parent a fencing coach.
Sorry, last comment, regarding refereeing. I highly, highly doubt there are more than a few fencing parents out there who understand right of way well enough to judge the quality of a referee. I often hear parents talking to their kids about "bad calls" and such, and whether or not they are right, most of the time I feel like they probably know that they aren't really sure if the referee is good or not, and they're just trying to show support. I believe this is a mistake. Focusing on external factors like a referee after the bout is over can never be productive. It's out of the hands of the fencer. Not to mention the fact that fencing refereeing is incredibly difficult to do, even for long-time fencers/referees. It's insulting to the complexity of the game when parents think they can watch a few tournaments and do a better job than the sport's referees.
For what it's worth here is a document off of our club's web page called "Piste side tips for parents"
1) The original poster and her husband are great fencing parents! From what I have seen they are helpful, positive (!), and not too directly involved. I just thought it was worth mentioning. Sometimes it's nice to know that you're doing the right things!
2) One way that I have found parents/boyfriends/girlfriends etc can remain helpful without risk of becoming another opponent for the fencer (lol) is to videotape! My GF and I often do this and I think it works for most people. It's nice because if I have comments I think might be helpful I can just make them on the video, and that way we can talk about them later when we are both relaxed. Plus then you get to hear all the funny comments spectators make, and the stuff your coach was grumbling about when you couldn't hear them ("He's winning 4-2 and there are 30 seconds left, if he attacks I am going to kick his ass...")
Originally Posted by Bonehead 
