applying fencing weapons to real life

[somebody1]

hello, i'm new to the board and new to fencing.

recently i decided to feature one of the three fencing weapons in a story, because they are cool. (so sue me!)

what are your thoughts on using sharp fencing weapons for things like fending off thugs in dark alleyways?

a long time ago, in a movie i think, i saw a foil like weapon drawn from a sheath that looked like a walking stick. can they really be concealed in walking sticks?

thanks.

[somebody1]

also, can someone tell me what a regular sheath looks like?

[swordsen]

yes, they make sword canes but if you don't know what sheaths look like and such as that. (and generally for a sword the word is scabard) I would strongly suggest some time in a good library doing heavy research.
Just an idea.....

[oiuyt]

I think that using sharpened fencing weapons in self defense is a great idea!!!!


Especially if the way you use it is to toss it at your assailant giving you enough type to pick up whatever random bit of something with some mass is laying around that can be used as a club.

</sarcasm>

Fencing weapons are NOT a good choice outside of the highly restricted situations in sport fencing. At best they could be used optimalyl by ignoring the "sword-like" features and using them as either poor bludgeoning devices or as a reasonable cane (in the rattan cane sense, not the support sense). The problem is that whipping someone with a metal cane will hurt them, but if you didn't stop them with te first hit they've now closed on you and you have very unwiedly brass (okay, in this case stell or more likely aluminum) knuckles at best. Whip them. If they close, bell punch. Ignore the fact that you may or may not have a sharpened tip.

-B :)

[darius]

I think it's a great idea -- I mean, all the training we do is in the service of a potential duel, right?

Fleche past and while the alley-thug is wondering where the heck you went, turn around and flick him in the retina.

darius

[S. Fisher]

I've got a sharpened sabre w/epee blade. It's nice
It looks exactly like the sabres used in Walt Disney's Zorro.

[epeefencer74]

Fencing actions need not be used with fencing weapons. It was said that Nadi could beat of attackers with a broom handle. Using an umbrella with a really stiff spine and a metal spike on top as a substitue is another possibility. However I would much prefer to use bayonet fighting methods in this configuration as you have slightly more options.

[Gav]

I actually think that using a sword cane is a potentially good idea. As a trained fencer you will be able to inflict stopping blows (cuts + puncture wounds) on a thug that would prove really off putting. Of course in america or other countries where thugs come equipped with guns then a sword cane is worse than useless.

Training as an Epeeist and Sabruer would teach you proper point and edge control that you would need in order to defend yourself using such a weapon. Historical fencing buffs can argue all they like but the general priniciples are still taught (at least were I am). I would argue that modern foil would let you down (unless you got really good at delivery painful whip hits - with an edged blade these could be very nasty indeed). My old fencing master brought in his sword cane to show us when he went into retirement. It basically consisted of a cool deer antler handle with courtsword (flattened Epee blade perhaps) Blade. The point was very sharp as wsa the edge and if threatened I would quite confident in my abilities to provide a number of nice puncture wounds and possibly nice cuts.

The Police in the UK would take a rather dim view if anyone actually carrying one as they advocate force only in extreme situations and even then only what's necessary to get away.

[epeemike81]

Don't.

-m

[Gav]

On another note do not fleche! The fleche was rarely used in a lifethreatening situation as the outcome isn't definite when sharps are involved. A better approach would be to keep out of distance and only attack when you are absolutely sure of delivering a combat stopping hit (Epee would teach you the basics of this).

As epeemike points out violence of any kind is bad. I'd rather talk my way out (which I have done in the few times in the past when I've been attacked). Bluster and posturing can work wonders.

[somebody1]

Originally posted by oiuyt
I think that using sharpened fencing weapons in self defense is a great idea!!!!


Especially if the way you use it is to toss it at your assailant giving you enough type to pick up whatever random bit of something with some mass is laying around that can be used as a club.

</sarcasm>

-B

but.. with the sharpened tip, could you not puncture them in the jugular (ok, their legs, to immobilise them)? thus making bludgeoning and other physical exertions unnecessary?

granted, there are many rules in fencing that restrict, but in the 'olden' days didn't people use rapiers for self defense?


and as for the violence issue, this is for a story. a story. i don't intend to go around and do physical things, just wanted to find out the plausibility of using a sharpened one as a weapon.

[Gav]

<i> granted, there are many rules in fencing that restrict, but in the 'olden' days didn't people use rapiers for self defense?</i>

You cannot apply rules of right of way to a genuine fight. Epee rules are better as there is none of this " you didn't hit me because I have right of way" nonsense. In realisty in any kind of street fight anything goes.

[Inquartata]

There are recorded instances of duellists being repeatedly run through the body with rapiers and smallswords and surviving. There are cases of men stabbed through the heart and living on for several minutes...more than long enough to strangle you.

There are very few targets which you could pierce with a sharpened foil which would immediately incapacitate an attacker with a full dose of adrenaline and anger going. The back of the neck, if you manage to sever the spinal column. Maybe the eye. Otherwise a thrust is unreliable when it comes to stopping power. You might inflict a lethal wound, but if it takes ten minutes it may do you little good.

[Gav]

True. However there is plenty of scope for continually avioding your opponents and inflicting multiple serious wounds. Every decent hit to a main aretery or vain adds to the stress of the individual receiving them. At some point even a hardened criminal is going to decide that 'this' is not worth it. Then there is the shock value of being hit with a weapon that you never expected to face...

I do agree though that a foil is useless in a fight - it has little chance of inflicting a serious injury. THe foil was never intended as a combat weapon.

A sharpened Epee is basically a court sword and can inflict serious injuries if used correctly.

A modern fencing Sabre wouldn't be much cop, however it can inflict nast whips and if the blade was sharp ... ick nasty cuts.

Rapier blades are too long and too broad to make a convincing sword stick in any case. But would obviously be pretty good for inflicting cuts AND punctures.

You use what you've got. I'd also imagine a chest hit delivered with a broom handle and sufficiently hard in the correct place (say in the in the chest) could wind or crack a bone.

[Inquartata]

Yes, IF you can stay away from an aggressor you can prick him repeatedly until he desists. But CAN you stay away from him? Can you go faster backward than he can run at you forward? Can you rely on not tripping, encountering a car or a wall, etc.? What if he throws something at you? What if he manages to grab your blade? Many's the skilled swordsman killed by a rude untutored bumpkin who simply roared and charged him, if history's any guide.

I agree that you use what you've got. That's a good reason to have something better than a modern fencing weapon!

[Gav]

Originally posted by Inquartata
[b]Yes, IF you can stay away from an aggressor you can prick him repeatedly until he desists. But CAN you stay away from him? Can you go faster backward than he can run at you forward? Can you rely on not tripping, encountering a car or a wall, etc.? What if he throws something at you? What if he manages to grab your blade? Many's the skilled swordsman killed by a rude untutored bumpkin who simply roared and charged him, if history's any guide.

True, However I would be reasonably confident of picking off my opponents providing I can maintain distance and 'room'. As I've said, "in streetfighting anything goes". If someone grabs your blade then he is stupid. Withdraw the blade, if you've been smart you have sharpened the edges and your assailant has the pleasure of losing a finger or two plus the nasty gash in the plam of the hand. If you've not been smart then.... (draws finger across throat) you are unlikely to survive in any case.

Additionally I wouldn't restrict myself to fencing actions. If knee to crotch is necessary then so be it. If said thug charges you then a trip maybe in order or alternatively run him through then use your fists for creative bludgeoning. If he has grappled you then bite, kick scratch, grab testes whatever's appropriate and once he has let go run him through and follow up with some creative fist fighting. Even the hardiest thug is going to feel a touch ill with 3' of metal through him (even if it that isn't straight away).

Street fighting is tough, I come from a rough neighbourhood and when I was younger I occasionally hung out with the wrong sort. You learn quick and you fight dirty.

[S. Fisher]

Atlanta Cutlery now makes a sword cane with a rapier blade. The swordstick had 3 different functions. 1. An item of everyday dress/fashion. 2. Could be used as a club without drawing the blade. 3. Or you can hold the shaft in your left hand for attacking and defence and the blade in your right to make that........fatal thrust. Sword sticks ranged from having semi-wide blades to stiff pointed square(foil) blades.

[Gav]

Nice! However that looks like a foil (rather than Rapier) blade. I love the name of company - Atlanta Cutlery - nice and understated.

I agreee about using the shaft as part of weapon. However I thought the discussion was aimed at the use of the blade. Good point though.

[S. Fisher]

Sorry about that, that picture is of an antique swordstick at an auction house.

This is the one Atlanta Cutlery sells.....

[S. Fisher]

another pic, the one on the right is $75, the one one the left is $125

here is the link

atlantacutlery.com