Going to War

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by veeco
I see your point. But I fail to see what the relevance of this there is with the problem. Are you saying that all the countries (and believe there are many of them) who are saying that the US should not go to war with Iraq are not being honest and forthright? I think that it would be the opposite in fact when other countries would say "sure go right ahead" while they in fact would rather you don't.

Not at all. My point is, why would we just blindly trust France, Russia, Iraq, etc. when they tell us they aren't doing any oil business? Especially when they have nothing to lose in the lie, and much to gain.


And if these countries are not known for their honesty, then why is the US seemingly desperately seeking approval from these countries anyway, and being put off by the fact that they are not getting it?


Well, that is one thing I really disagree with: Seeking their approval at all. Many seem to think we need it to make the world like us more; I disagree. The world's disliked us for a while now regardless of unilateralism/multilateralism, and will continue to dislikeus regardless of the same. And again, I see no reason why we would want their moral approval.


No I did not say that. I said that there were oil deals, but that the oil was not being delivered to other countries because of the embargo. There are oil deals, but there is no oil...


Ah, but all the same, you are incorrect. There IS oil moving through. In addition to the legal exemptions that Inquartata brought up, there are under-the-table kickbacks. The same Russian I mentioned also revealed that besides the normal price for oil, Iraq would demand a large financial bonus besides, which was not so public. This obviously doesn't go for food...


No I don't. That's one of the problems of being French, I guess, I don't hear much about that kind of things... But perhaps you can tell me that Russian's name or something about it so that I can find some information about it? Or point me to some place where some independent 3rd party says that Iraq has in fact exchanged oil with other countries supposed to respect the embargo, while under embargo...

I will see what I can do about getting his name, more specifics, etc. His name may not in fact be released; he has put himself - boldly - in a very dangerous position. I think that bringing the truth out at great personal peril as he did is highly commendable.

[latenight]

I don't know anything about this russian story.


but I found this the other day, it's interesting.


http://www.wadinet.de/news/iraq/nw1171_protect.htm

[veeco]

Originally posted by latenight
I don't know anything about this russian story.


but I found this the other day, it's interesting.


http://www.wadinet.de/news/iraq/nw1171_protect.htm

Very interesting link latenight. I think I understand even better the position of all these governments who are trying to avoid a war in Iraq...

On another note, here is a link to an editorial made by Senator Robert C. Byrd (W Virginia). It's an interesting read, especially on the reasons why the US should not try and sell a war on Iraq as a preemptive action:

http://byrd.senate.gov/byrd_newsroom...ebruary_9.html

Just to add on this, this is the one thing that the UN and other peace organizations have been trying hard since the last 2nd world war to happen: prevent a country to go to war for preemptive reasons. No matter what the country is usually when a country invaded another and started a war, it was usually justified as a "preemptive action". "They were going to attack us, so we attack them" is not IMO a valid reason.

Think about the movie "Minority Report". Do you see in that movie as fair that they are arresting those citizens for crimes that they have not commit yet? I think that giving the "preemptive measures" speech is a bad idea

[latenight]

Good link Veeco. I had only heard soud bites from that and it was good to read it in it's entirety.

I think the worst thing about the situation is that regardless of what we think we know now , we find out 10-20 years later the "behind the scenes" stuff that makes your realize you really had no idea what was going on.

The Gulf War is a great example. There are several good books written by soldiers who were there. I'm reading one now about a british SAS team that basically got wiped out except for one guy.The title escapes me right now, but I'll post it when I get home.

[veeco]

Well, that is one thing I really disagree with: Seeking their approval at all. Many seem to think we need it to make the world like us more; I disagree. The world's disliked us for a while now regardless of unilateralism/multilateralism, and will continue to dislikeus regardless of the same. And again, I see no reason why we would want their moral approval.

I don't think that the world dislikes the US in general. There may be some friction with certain countries or between certain heads of state, but as a whole I think that the US is seen as a respectable member of the global community.

From what I know of our French president and GWB Jr. I can definitely think that they have conflicting point of views, but in general there is no animosity against Americans in France. Sure some people disagree with certain decisions the US makes, but in general, I hear a lot of people telling me that I am lucky to be able to live here in California for example, and I can definitely see the envy in their eyes ;-). Though that won't last for long as I am moving back soon to live closer to my family. On the same note, I know of a lot of Americans who tell me how they would love or loved visiting my country. In general the relations between US and other European countries, for example are pretty good.

It might be different in other parts of the world (it's possible the average Middle Eastern guy or gal doesn't feel the same). But in general, there is no animosity against Americans. I can see the value in not making that happen.

Originally posted by Swordsman
I will see what I can do about getting his name, more specifics, etc. His name may not in fact be released; he has put himself - boldly - in a very dangerous position. I think that bringing the truth out at great personal peril as he did is highly commendable.

Thanks!

[Inquartata]

As always, most of the tumult and rancor seems to be confined to the respective governments of the countries involved. The average man or woman on the street, whether American, French, Russian or even Iraqi, is generally much less inclined to purely nationalist animosity----even if they disagree on a given issue, they still find ways to get along as human beings. Whereas the governments, as entities, very often cannot seem to do so...

[135711]

governments can't seem to get along together, maybe because the higher up in government you go, the more out-of-touch they are with the general population, who for the most part, don't have any personal grudges against anyone; while some top leaders for example try to incite their followers. The average citizen is primarily interested in basic needs: providing for their families, putting bread on the table and seeing that their children grow up healthy and happy.

[Swordsman]

While they worry about diplomacy, politics, wealth, power, etc., it is the rest of us who are concerned only of staying comfortable and safe, and keeping loved ones near and well. Because nearly all people have those in common, we mostly get along...just not the leaders.

[The_Claw]

why worry!

I'll tell you why! right now we're about to blast the heck out of some country - i can't believe it. all the men in my neighborhood have decided to wear beards, are they copping out? is it a new fashion statement? are they protecting their ***? what's the story?

[civiltech]

I would agree with most of the comments in this last page. There is some name calling between governments, and you have some over eager patriots that may spout a few rally's, but for the most part, we are all getting along.

The new GWB trade policies re: grain/lumber are starting to piss a lot of Canadians off though! We love American's...there not much different from us! However your leader portray's himself as a gone toting Texan with "my way or the highway" painted on the side of his horse. It is a very easy way to isolate your country politically from the rest of the world. However, when your country holds the bulk of the wealth, people seem to love ya anyways! And any time I have travelled through the states, I find people friendly, helpful, and just plain nice!

Let's face it...last time GWB Senior was faced with critics saying "oh the threats, and the war could carry on..." what happened then? Anybody to put money on how many "DAYS" it will be before the American's walk on Baghdad this time? And yes, we all know war is coming. Right now it's just 'going through the motions' for Iraq and the US. Jockying for best political position before the inevitable.

What sickens me is the civilian causualties that always seem to pile up. Media has a way of politely mentioning civilians as a footnote when war actually begins...

On average, 80% of all casualties in a war are civilians, and people not directly involved in combat.

I believe the soldier defends our rights to ***** as swordsman's signature points out,...but if it involves hurting 80% of the local population where combat presides, can it really be worth it? Is it reaqlly our rights we are defending? Is it there's?


P.S.-My recent vacation from posting is over. Change of employment, and city. New year..new job. I'm back.

[135711]

It's kind of difficult to describe. But, Texas is like a different country. It's one of our jokes. "What country are you from?" answer: "Texas". I'm originally from the north, and moved near Texas. The men really wear cowboy hats to business, and bolo ties and vests, and cowboy boots.

[civiltech]

For general interest, and a Canadian aspect to the upcoming war, here are a few of our our national news sites:


http://www.ctvnews.ca

a well respected TV news station site, much like cnn.com, or CBC Newsworld.


http://www.globeandmail.com

a slightly left of center newspaper


http://www.nationalpost.com

a slightly right of center newspaper



http://www.cbc.ca

The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation ( a Crown Corporation) which is more left of center than Stalin sometimes, but more/less gets the facts right. It just chooses what "facts" to provide sometimes, and which one's to leave out. (Can you guess they have been iritating me lately?)

[Swordsman]

Good of you to post papers from both sides.

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by civiltech
And any time I have travelled through the states, I find people friendly, helpful, and just plain nice!

Where did you travel through? In my travels around the US, I have found that the closer to the middle you get (midwest), and then as you go north (towards ND/MN), people as a whole tend to get friendlier.



What sickens me is the civilian causualties that always seem to pile up. Media has a way of politely mentioning civilians as a footnote when war actually begins...

On average, 80% of all casualties in a war are civilians, and people not directly involved in combat.


Where did you get that number? I don't think that's been true since the American Civil War, if ever - unless you count every related accident, etc. Especially now, I'd be surprised if many civilians were harmed at all.


I believe the soldier defends our rights to ***** as swordsman's signature points out,...but if it involves hurting 80% of the local population where combat presides, can it really be worth it? Is it reaqlly our rights we are defending? Is it there's?

It ain't just the right to *****, though. I think the one at stake here is the right to live, and live free of fear - in which case it's both ours and theirs.

For us, I think we have a right to live free from the threat of a nuclear attack - thus all the anti-nuke legislation/treaties, etc. We know pretty well that 99% of the nuclear powers in the world aren't stupid enough to try something on us. Iraq, however, we don't know about. We also don't have any reason to believe they wouldn't give terrorists a bomb to take to us. Naturally you say that such a thing is inconceivable, would never be done. But would you not have said the same thing on September 10th, 2001 about hijacked airliners being used as missiles into the Twin Towers?

For them, the Iraqi people live in a state of constant paranoia under the tyrannical dictatorship that is itself paranoid. They are continuously enslaved by fear. And a U.S. invasion would free them.

So yes, we're fighting for our rights, and theirs. And you know which country's the most in favor of a U.S. invasion of Iraq?

Iraq.

[civiltech]

The 80% number comes from Amnesty International. Now this is not engouh for me to go on, as they act as a lobby group, and like many other groups will take statistics, and use them to their advantage, not to the truth.....

"Ther are lies, damn lies....and then there are statistics!"

However, this general figure to my knowledge, after requesting infor from Amnesty comes from the UN something or other department.....uh....I don't remember! HOwever, at the time I did look into it, as I thought it was blown out of porportion....unfortunately it was not. I am sure if you make a few inquiries on the UN's website, it will not be hard to find.


Now, as for friendly Americans! My travels have taken me through Wisconsin, Minnesota, Michigan, Illinois, New York, and some other states that were just a drive through though. Not thorugh the south yet!
My worst excursion was to Minneapolis.. They know how to party like a bunch of nuns in a convent. Nobody wanted drink or party. After the football game was over, the bars literally cleared empty....and after 11:00pm...it was like a bomb dropped, and we were three Canadians in the middle of an empty city!
My trip to Apple River in Wisconsin....just across the river from Mineeapolis was the exact opposite though! It started with me giving some guys **** as they shot a fire cracker accross the front of my tent, and ended up partying with them until 8:00 in the morning. The only down side was about 3:00am in the morning, when a young lady got angry in her tent and yelled at us to quit making so much noise.....After I yelled back a few nasty words, her tent ziper opened up and out stepped a 6 foot something monster....I mean big....It was her husband....All he did was come up to us, rest his arm on "my" shoulder...and say "Now it's a good thing I like you Canadians....could you plesae quiet it down?"

And of course we did. How can you not like an Ogre that didn't eat you for breakfast?

I think that woudl be a good new thread...."Funny drinking stories." Anyone to start?

[civiltech]

Just when I thought we were growing out of propoganda, and childish attitudes as a society:


CTV Newsnet reported last night that on Capitol Hill in the US, the local restaurants no longer sells french fries...they are now freedom fries. The same with french toast. I'm sure this is a blow to France's stance against war in Iraq! After that, the political pressure on France must be unbearable!

And these posters of famous celebrities who stand out against the war are being called traitors? What the hell is that all about?

Now, I'm not just chewing on a bunch of pro-war fanatics...the anti-war also has it's fringe groups:

Here in Ontario, at York University this week, a bunch of anti-war protestors decided to attack one of the University's clubs. The Canadian Alliance Varisty Club (whatever there exact name is?) had a stand set up, sanctioned by the University, as they are a club. A bunch of anti-war protestors came in, destroyed the booth, took the president and threw him around a bit, tried to light their flag on fire, and when they couldn't get it lit, just stole everything and took off!

Does this not seem completely bizarre?

[Swordsman]

Bizarre? Most unfortunately, no. People tend to suck. Extremists of almost any kind really suck.

I think that most of those who are against the war (especially those who just are, with no real reasoning), are rather misguided. Traitors? Not until they start trying to actively hinder the government, or aid Iraq/enemies.

Freedom fries and American toast...I had heard of that. Even as much as I don't like the French right now and would love to see some boycotting, that's just retarted. What are they going to do about kissing? I heard a friend say he's boycotting french-kissing out of principle...it's funny, because the chances of him actually having an opportunity to are slim to none anyway.

But moving on: Did you see the incidents of brainwashing out in southern California? The first was a group of first- through fourth-graders out picketing against the war. Tell me, should they really be protesting - have they any idea what they're even doing?

The other one was on a larger scale: A middle/high school held a day of "seminars" about the war. Every speaker, every topic, every cited work, was anti-Bush and anti-war. Clearly propagandic posters were all over the school (I saw video of the thing myself; I'm not just repeating more propaganda). Even the principal admitted that not one dissenting opinion was presented.

Remeniscent of Hitler's Youth (can't remember the German term for it), anyone?

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Swordsman
I think that most of those who are against the war (especially those who just are , with no real reasoning), are rather misguided. Traitors? Not until they start trying to actively hinder the government, or aid Iraq/enemies.

I find it amusing that you are so quick to declare most of the world to be misguided. Chirac is leading the fight to oppose the war, and has been nominated for a nobel prize for it. doesn't that tell you something about the popularity of this war around the world? more to the point, the war is ILLEGAL. under international law, there are only two acceptable reasons for war: self defense, and sanction from the security council. Neither warrants war in this case.

But moving on: Did you see the incidents of brainwashing out in southern California? The first was a group of first- through fourth-graders out picketing against the war. Tell me, should they really be protesting - have they any idea what they're even doing?

hardly brainwashing....

The other one was on a larger scale: A middle/high school held a day of "seminars" about the war. Every speaker, every topic, every cited work, was anti-Bush and anti-war. Clearly propagandic posters were all over the school (I saw video of the thing myself; I'm not just repeating more propaganda). Even the principal admitted that not one dissenting opinion was presented.

agreed that a dissenting view should have been presented. However, I would question whether you would be this offended if only pro-bush views were presented.

Remeniscent of Hitler's Youth (can't remember the German term for it), anyone?

no, actually hitler youth were a group of teens who blindly accepted the propaganda put forth by the administration. sound familiar?

-m

[Swordsman]

1. I am not quick to call anyone anything. My opinions are formed after long reflection. However, I do think Chirac is misguided, Nobel Prize or no. Recall that Yassir Arafat is also a Nobel Prize winner. I understand that France, Germany, and most of the world have nothing to gain from such a war - but they are misguided, I think (and I speak softly here), to try to bind our own hands from self-defense.

2. I am offended whenever only one side of an argument is presented; not just in international politics, but even in discussions with friends on the merits of another person, action, etc. within our own small circle of life. There are two sides to every story; both must be heard to make an intelligent decision.

3. It is the blind acceptance of propaganda that I refer to, whether the people's or the administration's. I presume that your closing question was rhetorical and meant to suggest that I am in fact much closer to the Hitler's Youth. However, I would argue that I do not "blindly accept...propaganda". Again, my thoughts are carefully considered. I have seen the opposing side at least as much as the administration's (something the Hitler's Youth never saw), and have formed my own opinions. I choose to believe my own government in many cases, however. Would you propose that I deem myself better-informed than the president, or dismiss everything he says out-of-hand as untrue? There must be some faith, and faith does not make one "blindly accepting of propaganda".