Jacket/Mask Suggestions for a Newbie?

[Kirk Winslow]

Greetings All,

I hope you won't mind an equipment question from a newbie....

I'm just completing my beginning foil class and have thus far been using equipment from my club (I do own a foil and glove). I've been doing a fair bit of on-line shopping for a jacket and mask, but am a bit confused about what would be the wisest purchase. So far I have loved my fencing experience, so I am willing to spend a bit more than the typical "beginner's kit," but money is always a consideration.

What do you all feel is an appropriate balance between safety, cost, durability, and comfort? Do I need an 800N jacket? Would a 350N jacket provide reasonable protection? Is an FIE mask a wise investment? Could I get away with less? What is the "practice jacket" I see on so many vendor's sites? Are there name brands that are particularly known for quality and/or value? Do those plastic chest protectors provide additional safety with a less expensive jacket?

In short, I have loved fencing so far, but have no thoughts of serious competition anytime soon (probably goes without saying...). I want to be able to drill and bout to work on my skills for at least the next year, and to do so safely. I am one of those people who thinks it wise to spend what one needs to to get good equipment that will make the sport safe and won't need to be replaced as soon as I get a bit better. But I also don't want Olympic quality goods, the benefits of which I am far too lousy a fencer to appreciate.

Any wisdom from your experiences would be most appreciated!

Thanks much,

Kirk

[Mergs]

As with many questions of this kind, the answer always is "it depends....." In this case, it depends on where you want to take your fencing in the next few years. If you want to do international, elite level fencing, well, then you'd be required to have all the FIE stuff. But, if you are like most beginning fencers, and you see yoruself competing locally or at an occasional NAC, the the 350N kit would be more than adequate. BUT, if you think that you'll just be hanging around the club and free-fencing and taking lessons, then the standard beginners kit would be adequate. As I said, "it depends...."

Good luck and good fencing

[damianip]

I would recommend getting a minimum of a 350N jacket to begin with if you've decided you're going to stick with fencing for a while.

The reason I say this is that I "crept up" on my 800N kit slowly and it ended up costing me much more in extra equipment than it would if I paid for it immediately up front (the benefit of hindsight!!).

Note that FIE clothing will probably protect you less as far as pain goes (less "padded"), but is more likely to prevent serious injury in the form of a penetrating injury.

The immediate benefit of 800N FIE and the better 350N clothing is that it is generally better made, more comfortable and less constricting than cheaper stuff.

As far as masks go, it's like the old saying about helmets:

"If you've got a ten dollar head, buy a ten dollar helmet"

"Getting away with less" is a funny concept for safety equipment.

My feeling is that if you're going to be fencing épée, buy the best mask you can find. That said, the other weapons can be equally hazardous if you combine a broken blade with inadequate protective gear.

Paolo

[Kirk Winslow]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the input, I really appreciate it.

As for the mask, I am in agreement with $10 head/helmet quote. :-) Going with an FIE mask sounds wisest. Is there a brand that is considered the most comfortable? Or best overall value?

Also, I think I would like to try epee in the near-ish future, but don't plan on taking up sabre any time soon. I know that for competition one needs a conductive bib for epee, but non-conductive for foil. Is there any way to avoid having to buy TWO masks?

As for jackets, what do you think of this plan: I saw that FencePBT sells an 800N underplastron for $80. What do you think of buying that and wearing it under a 350N jacket (much cheaper)? Seems that would give me the safety without costing as much up front (allowing for more $$ for a high quality mask). Is there a reason I would end up not liking the underplastron? Anyone tried one?

How 'bout those plastic chest protectors? They look like they'd restrict movement a bit. Do they add safety, or just cut down on the bruises from a solid touch (I don't really mind the bruises...)?

Thanks again for the help!

Be well,

Kirk

[JEC]

Theoretically there is a small difference between the bibs for foil and epee, having to do with the rules to protect your neck (epee) and not cover target (foil). The bib is not a target area in foil, but it is in epee. Thus, both are not conductive. The circuit in epee does not need a conductive bib, jacket, knickers, socks or shoes (all target areas). In practice, most manufacturers make masks that could be used for competitions in both foil and epee. The best mask is a FIE mask with a 1600N bib. BG has a cheaper FIE mask. I have (and like) an FIE Allstar mask, my daughter a Leon Paul, and my son Uhlmann. Each of us liked the trim, fit, design, etc. Regarding the use of strong plastron with a 350 jacket, it would be fine for practice and even US competitions. However, I would like 800N jacket with a strong cotton (350) plastron (Rationale more area being protected at higher grade against puncture). Underarm protector is needed for all competitions. The plastic protectors are required for women. For men, a plastic cup is useful!

[Gav]

For men, a plastic cup is useful!

And something I've never bothered with - personal preference.

I have a LP 'comfort fit' FIE mask. Very comfortable, it doesn't have that annoying bar at the back. Additionally you can play about with various padding that's supplied with it to get the best fit (I don't bother with strap running from the top of the mask to the strip at the back).

From a personal point of view I've always prefferd Allstar jackets and breeches over the competition. I don't rate the LP clothing. You could also try Uhlmann stuff as it's basically Allstar. I can't speak for many other manufacturers. I know a few people who like Duellist gear but this a UK brand and you may find it difficult to get outside of the UK. They are cheaper as they operate an interesting discount scheme (buy a lot and lots of discounts).

[Gav]

Another point.

If you fancy Epee, get the underplastron it'll stop ou from getting bruised as much - especially at the start (beginners can be put off by experienced Epeeists consistently hitting the same spot over and over) and beginners invariably get bruised.

[oiuyt]

If you fancy Epee, get the underplastron it'll stop ou from getting bruised as much - especially at the start (beginners can be put off by experienced Epeeists consistently hitting the same spot over and over) and beginners invariably get bruised.

Of course the spot that should be getting hit repeatedly is the inside of the elbow which isn't generally covered by the plastron....

From my experience, mileage may vary, etc., etc.... The basic beginners gear will last you 2-4 years but you'll REALLY want higher quality stuff near the end of that time period. The FIE stuff should last 5+ years and at the end of that time is still completely adequate. I've only recently started to see much 350N gear (all Uhlmann). My initial impression is that it looks like it will hold up similarly to the 800N stuff, it just isn't legal for international competition (not an issue for you, and unlikely to be one). I'd have absolutely no problem recommending it.

Personally I find the 800N plastrons rediculously overpriced. I own one and am happy with it, but they should be much cheaper. The point of the plastron is more to create an additional seperate layer which additionally has the benefit of having seams in a different place (or not at all). Those facts alone provide considerably more protection than the puncture resistence of the fabric itself.

The plastic chest protectors are required for women and almost unseen on men (when they are used they're the men's version of the full chest shield and they're used as anti-bruising protection, the little disk-style would be stupid for men, even disregarding the fact that our jackets have no way to hold them). Cups are a personal preference thing with many people claiming "better safe than sorry" and many others claiming that they restrict mobility. People in the first camp think people in the second camp are stupid for compramising their safety. People in the second camp think they fence better as a result of their choice and that THAT is what matters. Personally I'm in the second group, but there are large numbers of people that believe very strongly each way, you should figure out for yourself what makes sense (for the first 3ish years of fencing I was in the first camp).

For a mask I'd either go FIE or get the non-FIE version from a top vendor such as Uhlmann. I'd avoid the beginners masks from budget vendors. Not that they aren't safe, but they don't wear as well, etc., etc. You seem already inclined to go with quality for this.

For what it's worth, when I started fencing (well, after a year when I bought my own gear) I used lowest tier gear from Triplette. After just over 3 years I replaced it with Uhlmann FIE gear (that's when I knew for sure that I'd continue fencing after college). I haven't had to replace any of that gear in the 4 years since (I did have to replace an FIE sabre mask bought seperately more recently). A bigger issue than wear on the gear is changes in sizing. For a while I almost outgrew my whites (no, I'm not getting any taller), now, if anything they are a bit too big on me (no, I'm not getting any shorter either, nor do I think that my whites are changing size on me....).

FIE gear costs considerable more. That said, it also lasts MUCH longer than the beginners gear. The only reason that I kept my first set as long as I did was that I wanted to make sure that life changes (graduating, leaving my varsity team, moving to a different state, going off to grad school, etc.) didn't take me away from fencing before I made the investment in a new set of gear. If you're going to spend more than a year or two in the sport go directly to at least mid-level equipment. 350N is a good choice from what we can tell about your situation.

-B :)

[latenight]

I have to disagree with the concept of a 800n plastron giving you more protection against bruises.

My entire uniform is FIE. I love it.

It is very light and breathes better than my old non-fie stuff.

Due to it's thinness, it has very little padding against bruises.

It is very comfortable, and durable. But there is no way it is more protective against bruises than a heavier weight cotton run of the mill uniform. Punctures yes, bruises no.

And on a side note, the PBT Fie plastrons tend to be tight on the bicep, so make sure you get a big enough size.

[oiuyt]

latenight- I don't think anyone said that an FIE plastron gave added protection vs. other plastrons. I think Gav was comparing to NOT wearing a plastron (Kirk- as noted by JEC plastrons are required for all competitions in the US and are a REALLY good idea whenever blades are going to be used. Simple rule is that if you need the jacket you need the plastron.).

I don't think my FIE plastron gives any less protection (against contusions) than the cheapo nylon plastron I used to have (in fact I'd guess marginally more, which is more a statement about my old one than about the FIE plastrons...). Clearly for padding purposes, cotton whites (especially the old-style quilted cotton) offer much more protection. FIE whites are designed to keep blades out of you rather than to prevent them from hitting you hard.

Then again, bruises help give you something to talk about and to help start conversations to get your friends interested in fencing. They should be encouraged. :) </cheek tongue=out>

-B :)

[latenight]

I just assumed he meant get the fie plastron over the non fie plastron for protection against bruises.

My mistake.

[Gav]

I only know of one guy who wears a rigid chest protector. He got slaggeed off for years (what a pansy! etc). Personally I don't see why he did get as much teasing as he did however I also can't see the point in investing in a rigid chest protector either. A good plastron is just as good.

And yes, I was comparing wearing a plastron with not wearing one. I don't own a Fie Plastron - although everyting else is FIE - I've just stuck with my good quality non-FIE underplastron. I don't get bruised very often when I am wearing but do when I don't. A typical bruising encounter (minua underplastron) would be mistimed fleche and my opponent pulls off an instinctive parry, I nearly always get a nice hard hit on my upper arm.

Funnily enough I rarely get bruised on my upper arm. I usually get nastier bruises on my front shin from people going for leg hits (whether I get the point or not).

[Kirk Winslow]

Hi All,

Thanks for taking the time to spell it out for me; I am most grateful. (Btw, might this be a good thing to post as a part of the FAQ -- gear for the beginner? Just my $.02....)

So how does this sound for a start:

1) Sounds like an investment in a high quality FIE foil/epee mask is recommended by everyone. I agree that "safety first" is the way to go, and I'll plan to spend my first big $$ here. (Do you all still think that Blue Gauntlet is a good supplier?)

2) I know that I'd need an FIE jacket for international competition, and while I have given in to a delusion of grandeur or two, I can't imagine that happening anytime soon. However, an 800N plastron is far less expensive than an FIE jacket and seems like a wise investment for safety.

3) This would allow me to purchase an inexpensive practice jacket (given that for the foreseeable future I will be fencing almost exclusively at my club, in lessons, etc.), that would be well padded and help prevent some of those nastier bruises I am liable to encounter, especially if I take up epee.

4) Sounds like most folks don't see a need for a plastic chest protector and, frankly, it looks uncomfortable to me. Unless I end up being fodder for everyone else in my club, I'll skip it. :-)

5) I have not worn a cup thus far (I mostly hate them!), but given my own lack of skill, and even more importantly the equal inexperience of everyone else in my current class, it seems it would be wise to wear one for at least the short term. (With epee it seems it'd be a more necessary part of one's standard equipment.)

So, this leads me to my next question, which is a recommendation on a good plastron and jacket.

Seems to me the lighter and less noticeable the plastron, the better. Anyone have one they really like?

As to the jacket, I like the quilted cotton idea -- sounds both more padded and more durable. Anyone have a suggestion on where to shop for one? Does such a thing come rated for 350N? If not, would a 350N synthetic jacket make more sense for some reason?

Once again, my sincere thanks for your guidance. This process is so much harder given that I can't zip on over to the local sporting goods store and try this stuff on. Even the product descriptions at the on-line stores are pretty sparse and tend to assume I already know what I'm looking for. Your advice makes me feel a lot more confident, and makes it so much easier to spend a few hundred bucks (something I don't mind doing as long as I know it is being well spent!).

Thanks much,

Kirk

[Gav]

I used to use a good quality Allstar 350. It's in good nick (except that the tab for the zip has broken off - the zip is still perfectly usable). It lasted me for years and oddly used to pass as FIE grade (cheeky ). It looks a bit of a funny colour as it has been 'accidentally' died by my Fencing widow (girlfriend). If you'd like it I wouldn't charge much except that the postage to America might be a bit steep. PM me if your interested It's a continental 56 if I remember correctly (I'm a 42-44" chest so whatever that is in continental sizes).

[damianip]

Originally posted by Kirk Winslow
Hi All,

Thanks for taking the time to spell it out for me; I am most grateful. (Btw, might this be a good thing to post as a part of the FAQ -- gear for the beginner? Just my $.02....)

So how does this sound for a start:

1) Sounds like an investment in a high quality FIE foil/epee mask is recommended by everyone. I agree that "safety first" is the way to go, and I'll plan to spend my first big $$ here. (Do you all still think that Blue Gauntlet is a good supplier?)

2) I know that I'd need an FIE jacket for international competition, and while I have given in to a delusion of grandeur or two, I can't imagine that happening anytime soon. However, an 800N plastron is far less expensive than an FIE jacket and seems like a wise investment for safety.

3) This would allow me to purchase an inexpensive practice jacket (given that for the foreseeable future I will be fencing almost exclusively at my club, in lessons, etc.), that would be well padded and help prevent some of those nastier bruises I am liable to encounter, especially if I take up epee.

4) Sounds like most folks don't see a need for a plastic chest protector and, frankly, it looks uncomfortable to me. Unless I end up being fodder for everyone else in my club, I'll skip it. :-)

5) I have not worn a cup thus far (I mostly hate them!), but given my own lack of skill, and even more importantly the equal inexperience of everyone else in my current class, it seems it would be wise to wear one for at least the short term. (With epee it seems it'd be a more necessary part of one's standard equipment.)

So, this leads me to my next question, which is a recommendation on a good plastron and jacket.

Seems to me the lighter and less noticeable the plastron, the better. Anyone have one they really like?

As to the jacket, I like the quilted cotton idea -- sounds both more padded and more durable. Anyone have a suggestion on where to shop for one? Does such a thing come rated for 350N? If not, would a 350N synthetic jacket make more sense for some reason?

Once again, my sincere thanks for your guidance. This process is so much harder given that I can't zip on over to the local sporting goods store and try this stuff on. Even the product descriptions at the on-line stores are pretty sparse and tend to assume I already know what I'm looking for. Your advice makes me feel a lot more confident, and makes it so much easier to spend a few hundred bucks (something I don't mind doing as long as I know it is being well spent!).

Thanks much,

Kirk

Kirk,

MHO on each item.

1) Yes, a good, comfortable mask is a good investment. BG are nice folks and their mid to upper level stuff is very good, but they are over here on the East coast. If you can, try to work locally with your supplier. There's a lot of value to that. In So. Cal. there is HOM fencing run by Sam Signorelli who frequents this board. He might be a good start. I think he's in Burbank.

2) The FIE jacket isn't just to satisfy the rules of international competition, it's a choice for the extra protection. However, it's a good combo: 350N jacket and 800N plastron. That's what we've done for my son. Now that he's done growing, he'll get an FIE jacket this Christmas (sssshhh, don't tell anyone), but that combo has served him well.

3) I don't think you'll be wanting a padded jacket to compete or even just club bout. They are hot and restrictive. You'll quickly find that improving your distance will be a better way to limit bruising as opposed to wearing "armor".

4) If you are really worried about bruising, the plastic chest guard is a cheap alternative and a good combination with a supple jacket for mobility, coolness and protection, and it's fairly easy to put on and remove, even between bouts (when it's time to fence the club bruiser). I've found them to be less uncomfortable than a heavy cotton jacket.

5) A cup's a personal choice. That said, I get hit in the "area" about once a month. Wearing a cup allows me to not worry about it. I guess I just don't care for excruciating pain.

Plastron: I wear a Negrini FIE. It's wonderfully light and comfortable. It doesn't cover as much real estate as the FIE Uhlmann or Allstar, but then again, it's less noticeable. You can get them from AFS.

My son wears a Soudet (hard to get here). It's plated inside with some wicking fabric and it's a bit thicker than the Negrini, providing a little more bruise protection. It, too, is "abbreviated" like the Negrini.

The Triplette cotton plastrons are like armor (that was my first plastron).

My son wears a 350N Soudet. It's wonderfully light and supple, but hard to get in the US.

My wife has an older Uhlmann 350N. It's quite stretchy and well made.

I used to wear the AFS synthetic jacket. It was stretchy and provided decent protection but due to the tight weave, was a bit warm.

The cotton Triplette jackets are 550N but they are a bit restrictive. However, they are VERY protective for bruising.

I believe that the Estoc FIE jackets are made of synthetic internally plated with cotton. I haven't seen them first hand though. If they are made as well as other Estoc equipment I use (glove, shoes, socks, bell pad), I would expect them to be well made.

The synthetics are more supple, generally speaking. If you can stand a synthetic material next to your bare skin (and some can't; I was surprised that I could), I think they are a better choice. They dry quicker so you can wash them more frequently (old sweat ruins jackets).

If you must have a quilted jacket, Santelli and AFS make them, but I'm not sure if those items are competition legal.

Good luck in your equipment hunting adventures.

AFS
Negrini
Triplette
HOM Fencing
Estoc
US Source for Estoc: Sword Masters

Paolo

[Kirk Winslow]

Thanks for including the links! That is a HUGE help.

Great suggestions, too. And thanks also for explaining your reasoning, that helps a great deal!!!

As an aside, I have to say that part of what I've liked so much about fencing is the people involved. Those at my club seem like really good folks. And certainly everyone whose posted here has been very generous with their wisdom. I wish more sports had such a collegial ethos.

:-)

Kirk

[achilleus]

In So Cal, you can also check out www.thefencingdude.com, which has a physical store for you to try stuff on, and make sure that you get what you want.

[Purple Fencer]

Hey now...you're supposed to be pimping ME, not D'Asaro! I don't recall that he's ever posted here...

Seriously, right now Michael probably DOES have more stuff on hand compared to me...I'm in the middle of buying a new house and fund I would've used to buy supplies are tired up in escrow right now.

Still...gimme a call!

[achilleus]

Originally posted by Purple Fencer
Hey now...you're supposed to be pimping ME, not D'Asaro! I don't recall that he's ever posted here...

I don't mean to recommend any particular vendor. My feeling is that a physical store can really help an undecided person choose what to buy. Seeing, feeling, and trying on a jacket can really make a difference. Then again, I'm really picky about my equipment. So, I don't buy stuff that I'm not sure I like.

[Zelda]

I personally have 2 800N soudet jackets which are just as impossible to buy in Australia as they seem to be in the US. But the hard to find factor is tempered by the light stretch fabric. I personally could not wear anything else after wearing one of these. As for plastrons, I have an Leon Paul 800N which is quite small but is cotton inner 800N outer which is great for sopping up the sweat. Also makes washing a little easier.
As for masks, you have to try them on. One of my friends who has exactly the hat size as me wears a totally different mask due to preference.