Epee parry parry reposte or miss reposte

[thekoby]

In the example you give, why is 3 a better option than anything else?

It really isn't any better, IMO. Just another trick in my bag that I can pull out when in need. To be honest, I can't recall ever using it outside of lessons.

Majority of my game is based on counter-attack or take-over riposte. I recently beat an A09 epeeist, scoring majority of my points with a take-over riposte. I'm not saying that the parry-riposte in epee is bad, my coach just didn't want it to be the only thing I had, or rely on it heavily.

[DangerMouse]

What is a "take over riposte"?

[thekoby]

What is a "take over riposte"?

It's basically a counter attack, but I've always heard it called a take over riposte. Here's how it works:

Fencer A: Lunges

Fencer B: Retreats out of distance so Fencer A's attack misses

Fencer A: Recovers (most likely, after failed attack)

Fencer B: Counter attacks as Fencer A recovers

That's a very simplistic example. In epee, some fencers recover immediately after a failed attack so they are not left open to counter attacks. As your opponent recovers from their failed attack, lunge to the arm and catch it mid-recover. Maybe somebody else can explain it better than me. I'm more of a visual person. I'll try to get a video this weekend of a take-over riposte to post on YouTube.

[DangerMouse]

I know the action as "Taking over the attack" or "Counter attack number 2" (from Michael Marx). It's one of those few actions that a lot of people teach, but does not have a standardized name.

[darius]

"Get-away-go" is another common name for the action, more often used by foily people, but it should be clear enough in epee, too. I've heard some high-level sabre fencers refer to it colloquially as "short, riposte," which might cause seizures among some FOC members, but describes the action adequately.

I use "get-away-go", "make the attack short", and "take over the attack" interchangeably, and "counter #2" only when talking to NWFC epeeists. My brain screams "BUT IT'S NOT A COUNTERATTACK" every time I say it.

darius

[DangerMouse]

But in epee, if it is a counter-attack or attack doesn't really matter other than communication Also, the timing of the action in epee often does make it a counter-attack. I usually start before my opponent has recovered, which is often a counter-attack.

[darius]

But in epee, if it is a counter-attack or attack doesn't really matter other than communication

QFT.

Also, the timing of the action in epee often does make it a counter-attack. I usually start before my opponent has recovered, which is often a counter-attack.

Once the attack has ended, the opportunity to counter-attack has also ended. Of course, this is more pertinent in the convention weapons, where I want to know: is the call "attack, counterattack" (implying the second action began before the opponent's attack ended) or "attack no, attack" (implying the second action began after the attack ended, and thus should have ROW).

It's minor, but I see no real reason to tinker with the terminology here.

darius

[Gav]

Agreed! I find it hard to teach "in fighting" for epee because I'm all about seeing the lines, but recently have been working with a coach on counter 6, counter 4, and a take in 3 to close the distance and bring the action "inside" my opponent's distance. It does make a lot of sense to remove that line of attack before making your own at such a close range.

Infighting can be taught quite easily with a little thought. Here's a drill. Get both of your fencers to stand close and in a parry position. Tell them to fight their way out. There are 3 outcomes in Epee: double hit, single light and no light (more on that in a second). You're not really getting them to fence for any length of time but the fencers need to understand that just standing around is not the point of the exercise. If they are passive motivate them in whatever way you think appropriate. And the fencers need to understand that a Double Hit is not what they are looking for either. You need to repeat the exercise a lot: vary the parry, who is "on top", different partners and if possible get everyone to practise against a lefty.

You're not looking for a graceful execution of a set of moves; what your are looking for is for the fencers to see an effective response to the situation they find themselves in.

I mentioned that I was going to talk about the "no light" scenario a little more. What I really mean is that your fencer could see that the best way to stop being scored against is to force a halt (forcing a corps-a-corps is one way). This allows you to reset the distance and is possibly a better position to be in rather than too close.

[thekoby]

I mentioned that I was going to talk about the "no light" scenario a little more. What I really mean is that your fencer could see that the best way to stop being scored against is to force a halt (forcing a corps-a-corps is one way). This allows you to reset the distance and is possibly a better position to be in rather than too close.

I've told some students that if they do not think they can get the touch or avoid being hit, to move past their opponent to halt the action. This avoids any cards given for corps-a-corps. Is there any problems that might come up from doing that (other penalties or tactical issues)?

[Gav]

I probably over stated what I meant by suggesting forcing corps-a-corps. What I would be aiming to do is to force my opponent into a position where he can't wield his epee to score on me and so we must halt. If I can score and also stop them scoring then so much the better.
In any case simple corps-a-corps is not cardable in Epee. We're not talking about mowing opponents down like wheat!
You are also correct that passing is perfectly acceptable. The only problem I have with it is that it's a little passive and still leaves the opponent the opportunity to score. Generally though there's nothing wrong with it and you need to judge the situation you use it correctly.

I was talking to one of our juniors about this earlier in the week. The other thing we try to communicate to them is that when infighting slow the action down. It's better when in close to take as much time as you can afford. It's more important to put the point in the correct place and hit (before passing or closing out your opponent) than to rush and end up jabbing away like a maniac.

This is also one of the aims of the drill I outlined earlier.

[Mr Epee]

What I would be aiming to do is to force my opponent into a position where he can't wield his epee to score on me and so we must halt. If I can score and also stop them scoring then so much the better. In any case simple corps-a-corps is not cardable in Epee. We're not talking about mowing opponents down like wheat!

Tsk,

The action you are recommending (causing corps-a-corps to avoid a touch) is specifically prohibited in the rules.

That said, it's rarely penalized as an isolated occurrence, but a good referee will be on top of this immediately.

As a fencer, even if it happens once, it's worth having a quick 'clarification chat' with the ref to make sure they are aware of the rule - in case it happens again.

[Gav]

Hi Mr E. I've already said I was over stating my intent originally. I tried to clear that up. Good to see you on the board again.