Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

edew · 11-21-2002, 06:29 PM

Well, from the pictures posted on Sword Forum, it looks like Bonds is a righty (which means he should have been promptly dispatched if the evil henchmen were lefties, but I digress).

I also noted the sabre jacket and lack of gloves. Also the D'Artagnan shoes. Couldn't spring for the Adidas Equipment, I guess.

Training for the 2003 Olympics? (According to Sword Forum) maybe the special olympics.

Jackets are all too white. And look! WHITE MASKS! How anachronistic. I guess it was to fit in with the "whiteness" of the movie's color theme. (Maybe Apple should sue...) Just when the FIE has relaxed the rules on colored uniforms, they go back to the 1940's bleached white uniforms. At least they don't appear to be made of quilted cotton duck. (And how come Uhlmann or AllStar or even Leon Paul didn't get some product placement with their logos on the uniforms?)

Madonna looks good in her coach's jacket, although I would imagine she'd be coaching foil wearing a sleeveless lil' thang like that.

Also, I think Bonds has his glove in the hand holding the mask. If you look carefully, there's some additional fabric-y material there which wouldn't normally be there if there's no glove there. Geddit?

Also, Bonds' breeches look like football pants, not fencing pants. Who's ever seen front-laced fencing pants?

DHCJr · 11-21-2002, 06:41 PM

I saw the glove, but since you can't see much of it, you can't tell which hand it is for. I hope it is for the Left Hand. Us lefties need a hero, considering the three left handed loosers we had to choose between for the 1992 Presidential Elections.

edew · 11-21-2002, 09:23 PM

I'm afraid that all the other pix shown on Sword Forum suggest that Jimmy Bond is a righty. If so, then all the more pish-posh for wearing a wrong-handed jacket. (At least it wasn't a back-zip, or worse: the buttoned on the side cotton duck jacket.)

I think he (or the female fencer) should have gotten the Santelli stretch FIE jacket and breeches. They would make the gal (or Bond) look good. Certainly Madonner would fill out such a jacket.

Purple Fencer · 11-21-2002, 11:58 PM

Quote:

I also noted the sabre jacket and lack of gloves. Also the D'Artagnan shoes. Couldn't spring for the Adidas Equipment, I guess.

Jackets are all too white. And look! WHITE MASKS! How anachronistic. I guess it was to fit in with the "whiteness" of the movie's color theme. (Maybe Apple should sue...) Just when the FIE has relaxed the rules on colored uniforms, they go back to the 1940's bleached white uniforms. At least they don't appear to be made of quilted cotton duck. (And how come Uhlmann or AllStar or even Leon Paul didn't get some product placement with their logos on the uniforms?)

Also, Bonds' breeches look like football pants, not fencing pants. Who's ever seen front-laced fencing pants? [/b]

Eric;

Remember the line in "Bill Cosby - Himself" where he says that "parents are not interested in justice---they want QUIET!"?Unfortuately, I've learned that the movie industry works much the same way...accuracy is NOT a prime consideration. They go by what's visually going to enhance the scene, not what's accurate for the sport...thus the old sabre jacket & white masks.

As far as Uhlmann et al getting product placement...not without shelling out major bucks to do it.

And don't think that just because this is a major thatrical release the production bean counters would shell out for the Equipment shoes...they want stuff as cheap as possible...I just lost what would've been a $7000.00 sale on a tv show because they balked at the price...and this was for 20 complete SETS of dry gear!

They just don't live in the same world as us. If you want an accurate fecing scene, you'll have to produce it yourself.

Catal · 11-22-2002, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by edew
Well, from the pictures posted on Sword Forum, it looks like Bonds is a righty

Brosnan is left handed. Bond is right handed. It was a choice of the writers and directors.

http://www.anythingleft-handed.co.uk...rtainment.html
http://www.amiannoying.com/view.asp?ID=642

edew · 11-22-2002, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Purple Fencer
Eric;

Remember the line in "Bill Cosby - Himself" where he says that "parents are not interested in justice---they want QUIET!"?Unfortuately, I've learned that the movie industry works much the same way...accuracy is NOT a prime consideration. They go by what's visually going to enhance the scene, not what's accurate for the sport...thus the old sabre jacket & white masks.

As far as Uhlmann et al getting product placement...not without shelling out major bucks to do it.

And don't think that just because this is a major thatrical release the production bean counters would shell out for the Equipment shoes...they want stuff as cheap as possible...I just lost what would've been a $7000.00 sale on a tv show because they balked at the price...and this was for 20 complete SETS of dry gear!

They just don't live in the same world as us. If you want an accurate fecing scene, you'll have to produce it yourself.

So who won the bid? Did junior win it? Still 20 sets of dry gear (beginner stock) shouldn't run $7K. I'm thinking, mask: $70, jacket: $70, breeches: $45, weapon: $65, socks and shoes: $100, glove: $15 for $365 total. Ok, I guess that's about $7K.

One should note that that famous movie, Penthalon with Dolph Lundgren did use real gear, with brand names on the uniforms. And they did fence like it was fencing (somewhat).

Purple Fencer · 11-22-2002, 03:43 PM

I don't know who won the deal. Tim mentioned that they were going to be renting from someone else, and we both think that means they found a prop house that had gear laying around. I don't know if Jr. had enough stuff to rent.

You're close on the prices...for regular fencing. For movie shoots I pad it a little bit...my consultation fee for providing the services is thus built into the price.

Except for this last time. When I lost the sale, I tacked on a $100 consultation fee for taking complete measurements for 10 actors (who would then be doubled by others who weren't present) and gettingthe invoice ready...4 hours of work down the drain...on what is normally the ONLY night of the week I get to spend at home with my wife.

Grrrr...

It should be noted that this did NOT happen on the Arli$$ shoot, nor "Old School" (even though the scene was cut), "She Spies" or any other industry stuff I've done...every production company is different. How different? When Arli$$ wantged to rent masks from Tim -- and they found he didn't have enough new llooking masks to pull it off -- they offered to rent them at Tim's cost...which is arounf $40 per mask. Tim essentially got free masks which he can now rent out.

Masterfulks · 11-23-2002, 12:20 AM

The righthanded and lefthanded mixup could be due to a simple reverseing of the picture or film clip.....

JEC · 11-23-2002, 12:59 AM

That goes along with the idea that lefties are "sinister" mutations [if Bond is wearing a righty jacket, then the "evil" character is a lefty]. Incidently, I'm married to one of them.

edew · 11-23-2002, 03:26 AM

The movie as a whole is pretty good, with good stunts and the usual Bondsian flair for the outrageous. Two local papers panned it; the NYTimes gave it a cautionary OK. I thought it was great for simple escapist fun. Don't expect to be awestruck by the wonderful dialog or acting.

The fencing scene, with actual epees was actually done quite well. They were a bit too "busy" for epee, and hits to the chest is just not likely. They had a Leon Paul scoring system available, so that was a nice touch.

When Bond and Graves donned their masks, it was clear that the people underneath doubling for them are actual fencers. Their movements and hand work were not the movements and work of Brosnan or Stephens. I think the Paul brothers were underneath the masks. Still, Bond had a stupid sabre jacket on. And no underarm protector, but that's so European, ain't it?

Also, Gustav Graves is called the "British Olympic Champion Fencer", which I believe has been an oxymoron for the past, oh, 107 years of the modern Olympics movement. He and Miranda Frost met while fencing at Harvard. heheh. Shoulda at least said Yale. That would have been more believable.

Still, the fencing part was well done, for the two touches scored. Madonna didn't fence in any way. And you'd figure that by the 21st Century, fencing coaches would have front-zipped jackets, instead of back-laced ones.

The out-and-out swordfighting part was a bit over-the-top, though.

Worth seeing it before it goes DVD, or the smaller theater screens.

jkormann · 11-23-2002, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by edew

Still, the fencing part was well done, for the two touches scored. Madonna didn't fence in any way. And you'd figure that by the 21st Century, fencing coaches would have front-zipped jackets, instead of back-laced ones.

She was a fencing coach? Scary.

Quote:

The out-and-out swordfighting part was a bit over-the-top, though.

Did it look 'real' or 'real enough'? Were they actually going for touches or was it more of a weapon duel?

edew · 11-23-2002, 02:08 PM

The fencing part, with the epees were realistic in that it resembled what we see in a fencing club. They were hooked up to reels and scoring machine. They tried to get points, although after the second touch against Bond, Jimmy boy did a nasty thing and hit Gustav on the wrist which supposedly caused bleeding (what a wuss for epee, too: we've gotten epeeists who've been punctured in the ribs and still go at it, albeit several months later...)

The over-the-top duel was with those heavier sabres or claymores. Then they ran around all over the place trying to kill each other. Included in that "bout" were two-handed broadswords and other implements of minor destruction.

The fight-to-kill sequence was the result of Bond hitting Gustav on the wrist causing the bleeding.

The plot has an interesting twist, so it's worth going to see.

mfp · 11-23-2002, 06:41 PM

I'm surprised no one has pointed out Bond uses a "French" grip epee. However does he fence with it posted?

It's hard to tell from the jpg posted in this thread, but Madonna's epee looks like it might be a Leon Paul ultralight "reaction" epee -- distinctive by having a tennis racquet style "French" grip but without a pommel. Since that type of grip is only available from Leon Paul perhaps it should be called a "British" grip.

If it is indeed a LP, maybe the filmmakers liked the all-black look of the pommel-less grip to go with the rest of Madonna's "fencing" outfit.

[On further examination of the jpg at higher magnification, I'd say Madonna's grip isn't the LP -- the grip is too thin, with the reason no pommel is visible is likely that her lower hand with black glove is covering it.]

edew · 11-23-2002, 07:18 PM

The stunt double for Bond does use a french grip, but it's not clear he's posting. He does hold it in the "candlestick" fashion, and clearly knows how to wield it. The movement and attacks to the wrist are clearly a sign of a competent fencer.

jkormann · 11-23-2002, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by edew
He does hold it in the "candlestick" fashion...

What is a 'candlestick fashion'?

edew · 11-24-2002, 02:47 AM

Like a sabre.

jkormann · 11-24-2002, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by edew
Like a sabre.

Oh.

darius · 11-25-2002, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Like a sabre.

...touched for the very first time...

darius

Purple Fencer · 11-25-2002, 11:22 AM

NICE one, Darius!

3jane · 02-27-2003, 10:04 PM

Bringing back a dead thread:

"Picture 11 people fighting it out below decks of an old wooden sailing ship (mid-late 1800s)..they blocked out the scene and practiced it in the space of a parking stall! No one was EVER hurt, but it looked like they were trying to kill each other...all blows WERE aimed at actual target...not he "ants & airplanes" so favored by swordmasters of old."

Could it be ... Pirates of the Caribbean! http://bventertainment.go.com/movies/pirates/index.html