No Cant?

[kapunga]

[telkanuru]

"Whatever grip you have, if you have an uncanted blade and you extend your arm without bending your wrist, etc, your point will always be aimed away from your (same handed) opponent's target, usually to some place in the air next to their back ear. The same exercise with a canted blade should point directly at their shoulder."

And MY position is:

(1) No, it won't, unless you assume a doctrinaire attitude about what your arm and finger positions simply must be in guard ( eg before "you extend your arm" ).

If you extend your arm and let the point go where it naturally does, yes it will.

2) Even if it were true, so the heck what?

If you can't (hah) figure this out, I'm not really sure I can help you without using small words, visual aids, and an early learning specialist.

[WGH]

When I properly extend in a way that keeps my arm behind my guard (epee), my point usually goes wherever I'm aiming... with or without cant. Am I doing something wrong??

[telkanuru]

When I properly extend in a way that keeps my arm behind my guard (epee), my point usually goes wherever I'm aiming... with or without cant. Am I doing something wrong??

Is this really that hard to understand?

[WGH]

Is this really that hard to understand?

Often I don't aim for the shoulder. Maybe the arm, or mask. I'm going to need to adjust with my fingers whether I'm using a pistol or french, canted or not. I honestly find the cant more of a personal preference than anything and hardly a forced need. Too heavy of a cant and my 4/7 actions get all wonky.

[Superscribe]

OK. Enlighten us, oh mighty biomechanician! Which people are these? Which studies have addressed this vital issue of our times?

I suspect that you have none, unless they be ones pulled out of your...er...astute.

You can pm me an e-mail address and I can scan over proof with a big smiling picture of me holding a degree pulling it out of my anus. That might make you feel better. it probably won't though.

Also, you might want to talk to a coach who's actually been trained to be a coach, with maybe a degree in physical culture, physical education, or physical training. Somebody who's studied kinesthetics before? I'd give you a name, but I don't know if that'd help.

Maybe it's the fact that you could have gone up to almost any foil/epee coach at the recent D1 NAC and gotten the same answer you're getting from people on this forum who are actually pretty deliberate about our training on those weapons.

Maybe because if you thought about it seriously you'd realize you're fighting against a much larger group of people who are getting paid to think about how something should be oriented with respect human manipulation. It's not just fencers.

A good set of motorcycle rear sets costs like 400 dollars. What do these amazing rearsets do? They change the angle at which you have to toe the gear selector, and at which you hold your feet. That's it. People who are serious about racing pay for them. Happily. Somebody should tell them to save their money and learn to aim their toe better.

Basically every friggin toothbrush you can buy is no longer straight. Even these have "cants" near the head. Why, oh why, would a manufacturer interested in making a profit do something that stupid?

Why are fancy electric razors angled at the head? Why are non-electric razors angled at the head?

How come the friggin handle of a gun is angled for almost every friggin gun out there? Why not just have the grip at a right angle to the gun? WHY DON'T YOU JUST AIM THE GUN BETTER? WHY SHOULD YOU HAVE TO HAVE YOUR HAND IN A NATURAL POSITION WHEN YOU'RE AIMING FOR THE TARGET?

It's not about how extreme or what orientation something is bent. It's the idea that bending something helps with controlling the business end of a shifters, toothbrushes, and guns.

I can't but wonder if people who argue on F.Net really have FENCING as the only thing they can draw life experiences from, or if i'm actually taking crazy pills.

Oh i forgot one. Carpal Tunnel. What a joke right? A myth that lazy secretaries use. "I have a mouse and keyboard. I've typed on that crap. I didn't get carpal tunnel." Why can't they just keep angling their wrist? Somebody get a biomechanic on that. Somebody with a degree go and redo all the analysis that people with degree's have already done.

[WGH]

You can pm me an e-mail address and I can scan over proof with a big smiling picture of me holding a degree pulling it out of my anus. That might make you feel better. it probably won't though.

Also, you might want to talk to a coach who's actually been trained to be a coach, with maybe a degree in physical culture, physical education, or physical training. Somebody who's studied kinesthetics before? I'd give you a name, but I don't know if that'd help.

Maybe it's the fact that you could have gone up to almost any foil/epee coach at the recent D1 NAC and gotten the same answer you're getting from people on this forum who are actually pretty deliberate about our training on those weapons.

Maybe because if you thought about it seriously you'd realize you're fighting against a much larger group of people who are getting paid to think about how something should be oriented with respect human manipulation. It's not just fencers.

A good set of motorcycle rear sets costs like 400 dollars. What do these amazing rearsets do? They change the angle at which you have to toe the gear selector, and at which you hold your feet. That's it. People who are serious about racing pay for them. Happily. Somebody should tell them to save their money and learn to aim their toe better.

Basically every friggin toothbrush you can buy is no longer straight. Even these have "cants" near the head. Why, oh why, would a manufacturer interested in making a profit do something that stupid?

Why are fancy electric razors angled at the head? Why are non-electric razors angled at the head?

How come the friggin handle of a gun is angled for almost every friggin gun out there? Why not just have the grip at a right angle to the gun? WHY DON'T YOU JUST AIM THE GUN BETTER? WHY SHOULD YOU HAVE TO HAVE YOUR HAND IN A NATURAL POSITION WHEN YOU'RE AIMING FOR THE TARGET?

It's not about how extreme or what orientation something is bent. It's the idea that bending something helps with controlling the business end of a shifters, toothbrushes, and guns.

I can't but wonder if people who argue on F.Net really have FENCING as the only thing they can draw life experiences from, or if i'm actually taking crazy pills.

Oh i forgot one. Carpal Tunnel. What a joke right? A myth that lazy secretaries use. "I have a mouse and keyboard. I've typed on that crap. I didn't get carpal tunnel." Why can't they just keep angling their wrist? Somebody get a biomechanic on that. Somebody with a degree go and redo all the analysis that people with degree's have already done.

On the point of the need for ergonomics research I cannot disagree. Nor can I claim degrees in any bio-mechanics. Really I can only criticize the heat with which you have taken in your argument and the oversimplification of the issue.

You are correct in the need to consider ergonomics in gripping the weapon. For centuries the French grip has grown more contoured in this understanding and I would argue that the biggest reason for the fall of the Italian (the only truly straight grip) is the lack of contour. Cants themselves are not new and have been used with the French foil for a very good amount of time. I myself prefer a slight cant. However, the cant of a blade and the cant of a toothbrush can hardly be compared due to the extremely different needs of the two tools.

First, the blade shouldn't be held so as to make moving the point necessitate any contortion. I would contend that if the inch or two difference of point placement gives you pain, you should try a more ergonomic grip or stop using your wrist for point placement.

Secondly, the much used example of striking shoulder with cant and thrusting in the air near the ear without is only a valid situation on the high outside line in the guard of 6. If your cant is big enough to make a ~6 inch difference in target, you will get much discomfort attacking the torso in the guard of 8 and will require extra pronation in 4, 5 and 7. 2 would become easier. For epeeists, attacking the underside of the arm requires a more awkward angle if in supination and is actually easier in pronation. Defense also must be considered, as the cant changes the angle and rotation requires for each of the parries.

I cannot contend to be an expert on the matter, but it seems to me that your examples and argument do not directly relate as no-one is arguing against improving weapon ergonomics. Most of us use pistol grips after all and even French and sabre grips are mostly curved and contoured. What is being questioned is the ergonomic effect of the cant. You have well stated that the cant is more efficient when attacking the high line in 6 with a full extension.

Mention of research on other sports/tasks is circumstantial and does not contribute to the question at hand. Have there been any studies specifically on the overall effect of the cant on fencing? If so I would honestly like to read them to use the data to effect my own cant. As far as I have been informed, study of cant mechanics is mostly relegated to individuals playing around to their own preferences. I would be happy to be proven wrong.

[Superscribe]

Cants themselves are not new and have been used with the French foil for a very good amount of time. I myself prefer a slight cant.

There's no need for us to even have a discussion.

[Inquartata]

[QUOTE=telkanuru;842445]If you extend your arm and let the point go where it naturally does, yes it will.[quote]

Seriously, you are falling back on this? The Argumentum ad nauseam?

I still recommend that people just find a French-gripped epee and test your initial assertion for themselves. It's demonstrably false, and as I said 5 seconds of experimentation will show it to be so.

If you can't (hah) figure this out, I'm not really sure I can help you without using small words, visual aids, and an early learning specialist.

You might try refraining from making demonstrably, laughably false assertions in the firts place. That would spare you all of the effort you have to devote to putting that superior attitude into words.

Maybe it's the fact that you could have gone up to almost any foil/epee coach at the recent D1 NAC and gotten the same answer you're getting from people on this forum who are actually pretty deliberate about our training on those weapons.

Don't make me break out the list of fallacies.

Maybe because if you thought about it seriously you'd realize you're fighting against a much larger group of people who are getting paid to think about how something should be oriented with respect human manipulation. It's not just fencers.

We are talking about an issue specific to fencing, and in this case to fencing the point weapons with a French grip, so yes, it pretty much is 'just fencers'. Talking about ergonomic design in motorcycles may interest you, but it's irrelevant to the issue at hand...

Basically every friggin toothbrush you can buy is no longer straight.

Really?

That's just the sort of cock-sure categorical assertion that got Telk into trouble. Are you certain you want to say that?

Even these have "cants" near the head. Why, oh why, would a manufacturer interested in making a profit do something that stupid?

Step One: Get a microeconomics textbook.

Step Two: Look up "product differentiation".

Why are fancy electric razors angled at the head? Why are non-electric razors angled at the head?

Uh...so that they point on target when you extend your arm, instead of over your opponent's shoulder?

Try to stay on topic.

How come the friggin handle of a gun is angled for almost every friggin gun out there?

Oh, brother...

[Superscribe]

[QUOTE=Inquartata;842603]

Uh...so that they point on target when you extend your arm, instead of over your opponent's shoulder?

Try to stay on topic.

Um, i'm going to go with because the idea of putting an angle on a device so so your hand/foot can engage the target of greatest likelihood with the most natural position is so obviously a benefit everone from Kawasaki to Norelco realizes it? So obviously a benefit that people do it in fencing with their weapons, regardless of what grip they use?

[kapunga]

If you extend your arm and let the point go where it naturally does, yes it will.

Seriously, you are falling back on this? The Argumentum ad nauseam?

I still recommend that people just find a French-gripped epee and test your initial assertion for themselves. It's demonstrably false, and as I said 5 seconds of experimentation will show it to be so.

Uh, Telkanuru does use a French grip. At least he has every time I've fenced him or watched him fence.

[samh]

Why do you guys encourage Inq? He ruins discussions. Work around him so that people with opinions can be heard.

For my contribution: It is more comfortable to make a simple extension with a canted blade (in and down); however a cant comes with some costs. As has been previously mentioned, the larger the cant, the more it affects your ability to take and riposte from 4 and 7. All high level fencers that I have dealt with have some degree of cant but the degree varies quite a bit.

[whtouche]

Why can't we all just accept the fact that Inq is just the only one who is right? He seems to be comfortable with this fact.

[Allen Evans]

...or, he could be the only one that is wrong. And I'm perfectly comfortable with that, too.

[RebelFencer]

I like to believe that he just doesn't care and is just trying to stir up ****. It keeps my head from exploding with some of the posts.

[WGH]

Quote:
How come the friggin handle of a gun is angled for almost every friggin gun out there?
Oh, brother...

Just because I can't resist... The angle on the handle of the gun is completely dissimilar to a weapon's cant and is directly relative to the angle of the back prong of the pistol grip. Unless you know of a gun where the barrel is pointing at an angle, which I doubt would be very effective for absorbing recoil.

[the ancient one]

Lots of discussion about the role that cant does or does not play during the attack.

I think that is the lesser consideration.

The advantage to the foil and epee cant for me is merely the more relaxed hand and forearm that is possible while holding the blade as I wish during the neutral guard and footwork phase of the bout. This is much less of an issue for saber.

The active attack and defense modes, although critical, consume a smaller percentage of the total bout time and the high muscle-hand-eye activity is a given. During these times I don't see the cant contribution amounting to much assuming you are using your own familiar weapon and not some thing someone just loaned to you.

Just an opinion.

[Superscribe]

Just because I can't resist... The angle on the handle of the gun is completely dissimilar to a weapon's cant and is directly relative to the angle of the back prong of the pistol grip. Unless you know of a gun where the barrel is pointing at an angle, which I doubt would be very effective for absorbing recoil.

It's not completely dissimilar to a weapon's cant. It's completely similar.

the handle of a pistol is angled (not perpendicular to the barrel) so that when you are shooting or getting ready to shoot, the barrel of the gun is pointed at the intended target while your wrist in is a more ergonomically friendly position. different guns have different the handle at different angles wrt to the barrel. People will sselect and reject the gun they want to carry based upon the angle of the grip wrt the barrel. Think glock.

The angle of a blade is canted (not completely straight) so that when you are attacking or getting ready to attack, the tip of the weapon is pointed at the intended target while your wrist is in a more ergonomically friendly position.

Before your hurt yourself, please remember that you grip the handle of a pistol very differently than you handle the pistol grip of an epee.

[WGH]

It's not completely dissimilar to a weapon's cant. It's completely similar.

the handle of a pistol is angled (not perpendicular to the barrel) so that when you are shooting or getting ready to shoot, the barrel of the gun is pointed at the intended target while your wrist in is a more ergonomically friendly position. different guns have different the handle at different angles wrt to the barrel. People will sselect and reject the gun they want to carry based upon the angle of the grip wrt the barrel. Think glock.

The angle of a blade is canted (not completely straight) so that when you are attacking or getting ready to attack, the tip of the weapon is pointed at the intended target while your wrist is in a more ergonomically friendly position.

Before your hurt yourself, please remember that you grip the handle of a pistol very differently than you handle the pistol grip of an epee.

Yes, but would you not disagree that the angle between the grip of the gun and the barrel is more akin to the angle between the tang and the rear prong (or lack of with the french) than to the canting of the blade, which happens beyond the end of the grip. Grip contours do not count as canting in my opinion.

The grip is mounted straight in line with the barrel to facilitate aim. While it is well known that the cant is designed to facilitate striking in 6, do you not agree that it can have a negative effect on inside and low line guards and on parries?

[Superscribe]

Yes, but would you not disagree that the angle between the grip of the gun and the barrel is more akin to the angle between the tang and the rear prong (or lack of with the french) than to the canting of the blade, which happens beyond the end of the grip. Grip contours do not count as canting in my opinion.

NO. Just think for a second how you grip a pistol grip. you have held a pistol grip haven't you? The angle of the rear prong does not significantly adjust angle of the wrist. the angle of the prong adjusts how your ring and pinky finger are held and how the grip feels n the palm of your hand.

The grip is mounted straight in line with the barrel to facilitate aim. While it is well known that the cant is designed to facilitate striking in 6, do you not agree that it can have a negative effect on inside and low line guards and on parries?

While a grip on a gun is mounted at an angle wrt the barrel to facilitate the aiming of targets in front of you, do you not agree that it has a negative effect on shootings targets directly above you?

I'm not going to carry on this discussion with somebody who already cants the blade.