Traditional spanish grip

[EldRick]

The main previous threads on the Gardere grip are inexplicably closed, so I've got to start a new one - apologies in advance if this offends anyone.

Here's my point: I recently tried an LP Gardere grip and really like it. It's comfortable, allows for French-grip-like control, and yet retains the "power-grip" attributes of a pistol grip.

I understand that it is illegal for competition because it could be used for pommeling in addition to being an anatomic pistol grip.

However, I'm exploring how it could be made to be legal, while retaining its advantages. My thought is that if the aft 1/2" of this grip were truncated (after the last protrusion), and if no pommel were attached, it could not reasonably be used for pommeling, and would meet the spirit of the "single fixed hand position" rule.

It would, of course, be badly balanced at that point, and would need to be made of metal to balance like a pistol grip, or, better yet, like a French grip, but this could be done, with today's prototype and small-lot manufacturing techniques.

Could some of you refs please comment on whether such a grip would be legal/useful/silly etc.?

I'm thinking that one could produce a small lot of such an anatomical grip, and make it available for a price comparable to high-end pistol grips - would anyone be interested?

[noodle]

all threads older than 3 months are automatically closed.

here's the rule you're looking for:

If the grip (or glove) includes any device or attachment or has
a special shape (orthopaedic) which fixes the position of the
hand on the grip, the grip must conform to the following
conditions.
(a) It must determine and fix one position only for the hand
on the grip.
(b) When the hand occupies this one position on the grip, the
extremity of the thumb when completely extended must
not be more than 2 cm from the inner surface of the
guard.

[SJCFU#2]

I suspect that it would still be possible to effectively wield the weapon while holding the grip in more than one position even after you eliminated the external pommel. As such it would violate m.4.6.a.

I also suspect that at least one of those positions would put your thumb more than 2 cm back from the inside of the guard so it would also violate m.4.6.b.

[EldRick]

If you held it so that the thumb would be more than 2 cm from the guard, you would only have two fingers on the grip.

Would this position be viewed as a reasonable or possible way to fence with it? Seems to me that you could hold a pistol grip with only two or three fingers too, albeit not very effectively...

I'm only asking because I like the grip, and would like to be able to use if in competition. If it would still not be legal, I'll go back to training with a standard grip - no point in getting used to something I couldn't use.

[noodle]

If you held it so that the thumb would be more than 2 cm from the guard, you would only have two fingers on the grip.

two fingers is still a valid way of holding the grip if you have orthopedic extensions to help support your fingers

[DangerMouse]

If you like the fingering feel of the french with the grip of a pistol, you may want to try the schermasport anatomical grips. http://www.amfence.com/gallery/Scherm1.jpg

I have a few in medium and large that I'll bring up whenever I make it to check out the DeckStar

[EldRick]

Holding the grip here in my hand, to get the thumb further than 2cm from the guard, even without gloves, anyone with normal or larger hands would only have two fingers on the grip, once the part past the last finger extension was removed.

Can anyone else comment on whether this would "...fix one position only for the hand on the grip...", since two fingers would be a pretty useless way to hold a foil?

[SJCFU#2]

How many fingers do you think you need?

There are orthopedic grips where two fingers are about all that you can get on the grip (TCA's Spanish Offset comes to mind).

[noodle]

Holding the grip here in my hand, to get the thumb further than 2cm from the guard, even without gloves, anyone with normal or larger hands would only have two fingers on the grip, once the part past the last finger extension was removed.

Can anyone else comment on whether this would "...fix one position only for the hand on the grip...", since two fingers would be a pretty useless way to hold a foil?

what exactly is the point of this grip if you're removing the ability to use it more than one ways? it looks to me like if you hold it only near the front, its the same as a visconti-type.

[EldRick]

The difference is in where the two smaller fingers are placed. With the Gardere, they are more-or-less in-line, as on a French grip.

IMHO, this might be conducive to finer finger control of the point, as in classical fencing, vs. the more wrist-based style used with a pistol grip.

For foil, I don't expect to pommel the grip anyway, so I wouldn't be using the additional pommeling positions possible with the Gardere, thus the possibility of truncating it to make them not feasible, and making the grip potentially legal.

[EldRick]

Here's what I'm thinking:

Modified gardere

[noodle]

Here's what I'm thinking:

<img src="http://i39.tinypic.com/eiwg47.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic"></a>

that area from the vertical extensions in the middle of the grip to the left definitely could be held usefully.

[EldRick]

Well, so could the tail of a Visconti or Shermasport pistol grip, but that's an old debate.

I guess until someone fences that way and someone else protests, the rules won't be changing....

[noodle]

Well, so could the tail of a Visconti or Shermasport pistol grip, but that's an old debate.

I guess until someone fences that way and someone else protests, the rules won't be changing....

its much more impractical to hold it like this on a visconti. on this grip, its much more like a french grip with finger holds near the end.

[erooMynohtnA]

IMHO, this might be conducive to finer finger control of the point, as in classical fencing, vs. the more wrist-based style used with a pistol grip.

See, there's your real problem. You think pistol grips are not finger based. I suggest learning to use a pistol grip properly instead of trying to invent a new grip or revert to an anachronistic grip. There is nothing that says you can't manipulate a pistol grip just as finely with your fingers.

Well, so could the tail of a Visconti or Shermasport pistol grip, but that's an old debate.

I guess until someone fences that way and someone else protests, the rules won't be changing....

No one will ever fence that way with a standard visconti, because it will break the prong off to attempt to wield it that way. It's cast aluminum. It's just not that strong.

[Purple Fencer]

Here's what I'm thinking:

Modified gardere

If that had a pommel inside the grip (like a more traditional pistol), I'd pass it....it's the big bulb of a Frenchy pommel PLUS the prongs that make the gardere illegal.

[EldRick]

If that had a pommel inside the grip (like a more traditional pistol), I'd pass it...

That was the notion. Making it out of metal could provide something like the close-to-guard balance of a French grip, without an external pommel.

[Purple Fencer]

That was the notion. Making it out of metal could provide something like the close-to-guard balance of a French grip, without an external pommel.

That's more of a personal preference thing, tho....not a legality of the grip issue...I've known people who PREFER a very tip-heavy weapon for certain situations.

[mrbiggs]

That was the notion. Making it out of metal could provide something like the close-to-guard balance of a French grip, without an external pommel.

If you're looking for balance, you could perhaps try to modify an already-legal grip rather than doing what is essentially turning an illegal grip into a suboptimal legal one, then modifying it. Leon Paul, for example, sells lead tape specifically for balancing pistol grips. It's expensive, but it's an idea--keep experimenting.

And as has been said, you're subscribing to the questionable notion that pistol grips don't allow for fine point control. Think of the pistol grip as a French grip with several supportive protrusions rather than a glove that you fit your hand into and then move.

That said, I've recently seen a number of well-respected, competitive coaches using French grips for training. It might even be worthwhile to find one and discuss the pros and cons of using the grip, both for training and competition. Certainly you lose a lot of strength, and for arguable gain in point control and finesse.

The only thing more to say is that there aren't really any successful competitive foil fencers who use a French grip. (There is one I can think of, but his usage of the French grip is more to take advantage of extreme angulation rather than finesse--not exactly what you're looking for.)

[SJCFU#2]

If that had a pommel inside the grip (like a more traditional pistol), I'd pass it....it's the big bulb of a Frenchy pommel PLUS the prongs that make the gardere illegal.

However the whole "external pommel + prongs = illegal" thing is really just a rule-of-thumb. There's a rather large gray area between traditional French grips and the commonly accepted orthopedic grips and many grips (such as the modern Spanish offset) fall into this gray area. I suspect that EldRick's modified gardere would as well.

Once a grip falls into this gray area the question of it's legality depends largely on the judgment of referee (and the head armorer, to whom the referee is likely to defer). If they choose to use the external pommel rule-of-thumb (as PF has indicated he probably would) than the grip will probably pass. If they instead go by the letter of the rule (as I probably would) and determine that the weapon can be be held (and effectively wielded) with the hand in more than one position or with the thumb more than 2 cm from the inside of the bell guard then it's likely to be ruled illegal.

Also bear in mind that the rules regarding the legality of orthopedic grips aren't as cut and dry as we would sometimes like. A large Visconti or Belgian grip that is considered perfectly legal for use by one individual can still be considered illegal for use by someone else who happens to have a smaller hand.