Traditional spanish grip

[Gav]

I've been told in the past that the rules were brought in, specifically, to combat a growing trend where people were mounting ortho grips at the end of french grips thus giving power and reach. It wasn't felt to be representative of the characteristics of the sport.

And Orod. If you think that pistol grips are so superior that french grips are obsolete then it's also clear that you don't fence much epee.

As for the French grips making a return to Foil... I have seen a veteran, using a french grip, beat very highly placed British Foilists in tournament. Consequently I do wonder if we will see - at some point - a return to using the French.

[piste off]

You're also missing the part about how pommeling a French trades increased reach for power and control. That's why the rule is there...if you can grab the pommel and hook a finger around a prong, you have NOT traded power for reach...thus, the grip by itself potentially gives an advantage...far mor of one than French vs Pistol.

I think the tradeoff still exists, perhaps more on "control" than "power".

I've been experimenting with long pistol grips (as long as legally allowed), and since my fingers are rather long I can get away with a PG that is about an inch longer than normal and still be within the rules.

A couple of observations:

1. The added strength of the PG does not really add that much more than when I pommel French, which has the additional advantage of 3" more reach.

2. Any added length (long PG or French) really impacts the ability to control the weapon versus a short pistol. Much more precision with the shorter version.

3. The biggest difference between long and short is not so much in power, but the ability to change directions of the weapon (e.g. 2nd intention, remises etc.).

The above is really noticeable when fencing better fencers, particularly faster ones. You could duck tape your hand to a French grip (obviously illegal) and you still would suffer somewhat - mainly due to the longer lever. At least in my circles, fencing is less about strength in blade actions (i.e. taking the blade) and more about the ability to quickly change directions and therefore responsiveness is paramount. Shorter has the edge here.

R-

[downunder]

Based on French: ILLEGAL
Spanish Offset: Legal

Aside from the curved prongs what is the difference between these two? Surely if the first is illegal the second is as well.

I don't usually weigh into any of these thread as I never really come across these grips, it seems to be limited to a US thing.

As someone said ealier, I would be very happy as a fencer if someone came engarde against me with one of these grips.

[Gav]

I don't usually weigh into any of these thread as I never really come across these grips, it seems to be limited to a US thing.

QFT.

It really is...

[downunder]

Shorter has the edge here.

Tell that to Fabrice Jeannet . They're just different, promoting different styles of fencing. I don't think we can say one in general is better than the other in epee. Obviously everyone has their own personal view.

[Noxias80]

Tell that to Fabrice Jeannet . They're just different, promoting different styles of fencing. I don't think we can say one in general is better than the other in epee. Obviously everyone has their own personal view.

My italian foils a size 4 but its a dry foil :\

And I'll probably get to work on the Traditional spanish grip seeing how it would be fun to experiment, the only quarrel might be the blade itself, but im not sure if there are certian blade types that aren't allowed

what tool will i need for threading

[downunder]

...

Why did you quote me here?

[DHCJr]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Fencer
Based on French: ILLEGAL
Spanish Offset: Legal

Aside from the curved prongs what is the difference between these two? Surely if the first is illegal the second is as well.

I don't usually weigh into any of these thread as I never really come across these grips, it seems to be limited to a US thing.

As someone said ealier, I would be very happy as a fencer if someone came engarde against me with one of these grips.

That is a poor picture of a Spanish Offset. If you look at the picture Stormbringer supplied it would be more obvious, the reason.

[piste off]

Tell that to Fabrice Jeannet . They're just different, promoting different styles of fencing. I don't think we can say one in general is better than the other in epee. Obviously everyone has their own personal view.

Never said one way was better.

Shorter has the edge in control, maneuverability and change of direction. That is a fact based on simple physics, and you may have a point of view that differs from that but then you would be wrong.

Because of that they do promote different styles of fencing.

R-

[OROD]

And Orod. If you think that pistol grips are so superior that french grips are obsolete then it's also clear that you don't fence much epee.

I should have said, I was speaking only about foil.

.

[OROD]

You're also missing the part about how pommeling a French trades increased reach for power and control. That's why the rule is there...if you can grab the pommel and hook a finger around a prong, you have NOT traded power for reach...thus, the grip by itself potentially gives an advantage...far mor of one than French vs Pistol..

No I didnt miss the point about trading reach for power. I'm just saying that there's nothing special in fencing that says we need to have some balance between reach and power. There are many, many factors that go into the effectiveness of a fencing weapon... control, range of movement, weight, etc. Hence my argument about ortho versus French (in foil). The ortho grip is overall a better, more advantageous grip, and that seems to be perfectly fine with the FIE/rules/everyone else. This whole "you need to give up power if you get more reach" argument is just a rationalization for people that dont want things to change... like those that want to get rid of flicks.

If an ortho grip with a pommel at the end is better, why not use it? And, I'm not even saying that I'm for allowing them... I just dont like the hypocrisy of the arguments being made against them. If you dont want to change because you just dont like Spanish grips, or because of tradition, or whatever, then say so. Dont make up arguments about Spanish having some sort of advantage when we already clearly allow this situtation with other grips.

.

[Purple Fencer]

Dont make up arguments about Spanish having some sort of advantage when we already clearly allow this situtation with other grips.

.

WHICH other grips? Aside from the Gardere...which is ONLY legal for competition in the UK...all grips with a French pommel and additional projections are illegal everywhere in Olympic style fencing (don't know about the classical world).

And I'm making things up...no more so than Donald Clinton, Dan DeChaine, Carl Oberg, Ted Li, Joe Byrnes, or any number of armorers who maintain much the same interpretation.

[OROD]

WHICH other grips?

Pistol grips, like I said in my post.

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[oiuyt]

The rules don't care about whether two fencers with the spanish grip has the same advantage. They are worried about fencers with different handles having advantages. They consider that what the 'pistol grip' gains in strength is offset by the lack of the ability to post.

Pistol grips are clearly superior to French grips and I dont see a rule outlawing them, so your argument doesnt really hold water.

I just dont like the hypocrisy of the arguments being made against them. If you dont want to change because you just dont like Spanish grips, or because of tradition, or whatever, then say so. Dont make up arguments about Spanish having some sort of advantage when we already clearly allow this situtation with other grips.

WHICH other grips?

PF: CLEARLY you're missing OROD's point.

He isn't saying that there are legal orthopedic grips which can be posted. He's saying that the argument being put forward that the reason they are illegal is because we require balance between different grips is invalid as we currently have an unbalanced situation (namely that pistol grips are at a significant competitive advantage over French grips (in foil)).

Going back to the top quote I've presented:

They are worried about fencers with different handles having advantages.

OROD is arguing against this statement (and a couple of others in the same vein).

A better argument is simply that THIS is where we've chosen to draw the line. THIS is legal, THIS is illegal. And thus it is spoken and thus must it be.

-B

[Purple Fencer]

PF: CLEARLY you're missing OROD's point.

Actually, it wasn't clear to me when he posted...it cleared up when he clarified it.

[Barry Paul at Home]

How did you get it legal in the UK when it's ILLEGAL everywhere else (in the actual rules)?

How did you get it legal in the UK when it's ILLEGAL everywhere else (in the actual rules)?

First let me say we sell about 20 Gardere handles a year so financially it is not a issue. When you talk about legal this I think refers to the F.I.E. rule book which the U.K. uses as it's rules for fencing. (I presume the USA does some thing similar) The problem is the rules were written in the days of non electric fencing, they have since been added to, amended, some times changed and some times contradictory.

If you say every one in the USA must follow every the rule to the letter, you could have no non electric fencing, no fencing other than size 5 blades. (or do you check the flexibility of a size 0 electric blade and fail them because they are too flexible?) Most of the competitions would have to be cancelled because you don't have the proper spacing for each piste and the format is often not according to the latest F.I.E. rules.

So you decide to follow some rules but where it suites but not others. Common sense rules?

Rules on Handles.

Just before electric fencing was introduced mostfencers other than Italian and people with damaged hands used French grips. The appearance of a pistol grips was just about acceptable but a handle like the Gardere a French handle with abominations of pistol grip protrusions was just to much for the, some what old school, members of the then SEMI. So a grip call Gardere was not accepted (there is no physical description of a Gardere handle in the rules.) on the grounds it could be held half way down the handle, but of course many other pistol grips can also be held part way down the handle. To avoid all this argument the F.I.E. rules need changing to some thing much more logical and simple. There are two types of allowed handles 1. Simple handles with a continuous profile down it's length (normally called a French handle). 2, All others which have a protuberance on their outer surface greater than say 5 mm ( or some definition to be agreed.)

The weapon when mounted with the handle must fit the weapon gauge.
All type 2 handles must be held with the thumb no greater than 20 mm from the guard.

So should a technician fail or pass a handle, in my opinion only if the weapon does not fit the gauge. Leave implementation/enforcement of the second rule to the referee. (no argument about internal pommels, grand father right or can this handle be held in a different position.) I suggest that common sense is applied rather than blindly following some rules and ignoring others.

Would I mind my opponent using a Gardere handle, even if he held it more than 20 mm from the guard, absolutely not. In fact I would prefer him to do it. It would have all the disadvantages of a pistol grip and french handle in one grip, magic!!

[schlager7]

It would have all the disadvantages of a pistol grip and french handle in one grip, magic!!

Sounds like a good description of the old "American" grip.

[WGH]

I'll throw a note in here just in regards to the "advantage" of the spanish grip. In this case I'm talking about the Cetrulo/Spanish Offset grip. I've been using it for a few weeks in place of my belgians and am rather ready for review. To note, I started on the italian and french grips and have used visconti and belgian in sport.

Posting: Pointless on the Cetrulo. If I post close enough to grab onto a prong I find it to be substantially weaker for about 1.5" of gain with far worse point control than posted french. If I hold it as far back as possible, it is even worse. The tail is contoured in an odd way that makes it difficult to hold with your thumb 90 degrees from the bend and is far too skinny. I'll allow that it could be partly due to lack of practice posting with it, but first impression is that the prong is a poor substitute to a nice thick french grip like the Leon Paul.

Point control: Pretty much the same as choked up french with the prongs really helping with any pronation. Better than choked up french for flicking due to the middle finger prong but worse than my belgian as the back fingers don't really factor in much. Point control and flicks both improved with use of wrist strap.

Strength/Angulation: Again, stronger than the french and weaker than my belgian. I used the Cetrulo both on its own and with a wrist strap. With the wrist strap, it was far stronger than the french and even than my belgian while completely eliminating death grip, especially in 6,8 and 2. Had awesome transport ability with the wrist strap. Allowed more wrist bend than an italian and flicked way better, but still virtually removed the option of a french prime and crippled my infighting. Had to use way more arm movement during infighting than I like, the fault of which was only partially the wrist strap's fault. I tried it with my belgian and, while slightly reducing my angulation ability, I was way more effective in close quarters than with the Cetrulo. Without the wrist strap I still found the Cetrulo worse for infighting than the belgian.

So it was basically what I expected... average. I certainly don't see any game breaking advantages for the Cetrulo and doubt my experience would be all the different if it had a pommel at the end. The prongs are too far forward to really improve strength while posting. I still have it in the rotation but find my belgian far more versatile.

[EldRick]

For those who like to experiment, Triplette offers American and Spanish Offset grips, as well as the "Hungarian".

[WGH]

For those who like to experiment, Triplette offers American and Spanish Offset grips, as well as the "Hungarian".

Yeah my Cetrulo/Spanish Offset (I use the Cetrulo name cause mentioning the word Spanish seems to freak refs out) is from Triplette. I haven't used their hungarian but I have used another that looks almost exactly the same. Not too bad. Feels a lot like a Zivkovic G.