Legality of Spanish Offset is questionable, any fixes?

[milstdfarm]

I love my Spanish Offset grips but recently learned that their legality is in dispute.

Could I cut off 1 to 1-1/2 inch off the end of the grip and sand off the edges to make it more acceptable?

In my hand, the grip extends about 1-1/2 inches beyond the muscle of my palm, and up alongside the inside of my wrist. That extension doesn't appear to serve any purpose.

Secondly, is there some expert source regarding it's legality I could site at a tournament if this grip were to be questioned?

Thanks for any help you can provide!

[Purple Fencer]

The rule of thumb is this....if it has prongs hanging off the main shaft AND if has a French type pommel, it is illegal.....if it has prongs but the pommel is an internal one (inside or outside hex), it's LEGAL.

Grips are not restricted based on name, but on characteristics. Post a pic....gthe Spanish and Spanish Offset are often confused.

[milstdfarm]

My grips are the Triplette Spanish Offset. No pommel.

I know there has been discussions on f.net about it. The general opinion was that the grip is legal. But I've also read discussions on f.net that there have been cases of a referee claiming that the Spanish Offset is not legal, saying it could be held beyond the prongs.

[migopod]

My grips are the Triplette Spanish Offset. No pommel.

I know there has been discussions on f.net about it. The general opinion was that the grip is legal. But I've also read discussions on f.net that there have been cases of a referee claiming that the Spanish Offset is not legal, saying it could be held beyond the prongs.

You could, of course, cite the rule book.

<= 20 cm overall length +
determine and fix one position for the hand +
extremity of the thumb no more than 2cm from the inner surface of the guard. =
legal.


edit: Oh, and with respect to holding it from the rear projection, you could argue that pretty much any ortho could be held that way (except paddle types I suppose). Perhaps have a spare visconti handy to demonstrate this phenomenon to the ref.

[Allen Evans]

The "Spanish Modern", sometimes called the "Certulo" grip was subject to some controversy for a while. despite the fact that this is a very different grip than the Spanish "Gardere" grip (which--at least in the versions I've seen -- has a French pommel and is illegal).

I finally realized that the sole basis for some armorers ruling it illegal was NOT the grip, but the word "Spanish" in its name.

Other than that, quoting the rules should be sufficient to allow you to fence with this grip.

[JacoKierkegaard]

You can hold any grip in a manner other than the one it's designed for, but that doesn't make it a good idea. So far as I can tell, the only way to "fix" your fingers in a certain position on the grip would involve Superglue and a lot of pain after the bout.

I'm a big fan of Germans, which have a particularly long extension down the wrist, and nobody ever complains about them. As long as it's got an internal pommel, I don't see the problem.

[parrythis]

I love my Spanish Offset grips but recently learned that their legality is in dispute.

...

Thanks for any help you can provide!

I fenced with Triplette Spanish Offsets for about a year. I found that they actually locked my hand to the grip TOO well.

Try a Belgian. In profile, they look similar to the SO. They are also accepted as legal.

[Purple Fencer]

You can hold any grip in a manner other than the one it's designed for, but that doesn't make it a good idea. So far as I can tell, the only way to "fix" your fingers in a certain position on the grip would involve Superglue and a lot of pain after the bout.

I'm a big fan of Germans, which have a particularly long extension down the wrist, and nobody ever complains about them. As long as it's got an internal pommel, I don't see the problem.

Exactly....the extension doesn't help as much as the bulb of a French pommel does.

The problem with quoting it the rules is....some people directing bouts don't understand the more obscure ones....or misinterpret something to be a rule when, in fact, such a rule does NOT exist. Tape in the guard in epee is a great example. Everyone KNOWS tape isn't allowed over the wires inside teh guard, right??? I mean....it's in the rulebook....

Except it isn't....there is NO mention of tape allowed or not inside the guard anywhere in the rules....tape re the weapons is only referenced re the tape on the blade in foil.

The rules state that the director must be able to lift the pad and verify that the wires are in 2 separate sheaths and that there are no hidden switches...thus, CLEAR tape is ENTIRELY legal, but some people don't understand that. Worse, some apply this "rule" to tape in the guard in foil....where again, there is no such rule.

[migopod]

The "Spanish Modern", sometimes called the "Certulo" grip was subject to some controversy for a while. despite the fact that this is a very different grip than the Spanish "Gardere" grip (which--at least in the versions I've seen -- has a French pommel and is illegal).

I finally realized that the sole basis for some armorers ruling it illegal was NOT the grip, but the word "Spanish" in its name.

Other than that, quoting the rules should be sufficient to allow you to fence with this grip.

To further complicate things there's a third type of Spanish grip that looks a bit like this
http://www.triplette.com/images/1389american.jpg

only with the bottom prong removed and usually a slightly upward cant in the rear protuberance. They are distinct from the cetrulo, but functionally pretty similar.
This, I believe, is what is traditionally called the Spanish offset, although I've also heard the cetrulo referred to as the offset and the chopped American referred to as a Spanish modern.

You're totally right about the referees though. Since the names for those three grips are somewhat fungible, with "Spanish" being the only common thread, some people mistakenly believe that Spanish == illegal rather than comparing the grips to the rules.