Horrible Refs

[Tavataar]

Given that the kid was young and inexperienced, I wonder if perhaps it would've been productive to ask after the first corps-a-corps+jostling, "Excuse me, sir: Wasn't that jostling in the last action?" If he said he didn't see it, I guess you'd be stuck, but if he said yes but no card, you'd then have grounds for an appeal. Either way, he'd probably watch more carefully thereafter.

If it was foil the guy should have been carded for corps-a-corps at the very least.

I was fencing at a small local tournament in Philly and watched some pretty terrible reffing. As a relatively beginner referee myself I have some tolerance for people learning the ropes, but this lady robbed a kid (FOR) of a DE bout and probably a rating upgrade.

FOR was advancing towards his opponent on every "Fence" command, arm slowly extending, clearly with ROW. As he approached, his opponent would start a counter attack, and the FOR would finish with a nice lunge. Ref called Attack FOL since his action seemed more explosive. Pissed me, and every other fencer watching, off to no end.

[AndrewH]

FOR was advancing towards his opponent on every "Fence" command, arm slowly extending, clearly with ROW. As he approached, his opponent would start a counter attack, and the FOR would finish with a nice lunge. Ref called Attack FOL since his action seemed more explosive. Pissed me, and every other fencer watching, off to no end.

If it happened more than twice, FOR has no one to blame but himself.

Also as for CAC, I'm pretty sure sabre refs don't card for CAC ever. I've been run into and had my mask bent out of shape at D1 NACs and haven't seen a card thrown yet.

[notalent]

If it happened more than twice, FOR has no one to blame but himself.

Also as for CAC, I'm pretty sure sabre refs don't card for CAC ever. I've been run into and had my mask bent out of shape at D1 NACs and haven't seen a card thrown yet.

You will see it in youth events once in a while. If you're doing D1, well I think it would have to look like a DB laying out a WR to draw a card.

[oso97]

You will see it in youth events once in a while. If you're doing D1, well I think it would have to look like a DB laying out a WR to draw a card.

Yep, saw a great one at a Y14 sabre event couple of weeks ago. FOR attacked and, in the process, tripped over his own feet. Ended up stumbling into FOL, and sending him sprawling about 10 feet, and entangled in his own reel cord.

I think the referee decided on a crossing the feet penalty...

[larkascending]

If you're doing D1, well I think it would have to look like a DB laying out a WR to draw a card.

I'm afraid I've lost track of the abbreviations here...

[geofmclean]

Football Season: DB=Defensive Back / WR=Wide Receiver

GO <__Fill in you favorite team here__>!!!!

[larkascending]

Oh, football. That explains my complete failure to understand what notalent was talking about.

[NGV]

If it happened more than twice, FOR has no one to blame but himself.

I wouldn't go that far.

It's true that "adjust to the ref" is generally good advice that all fencers should follow. At the same time, I don't think that advice should serve as a justification for inconsistencies in refereeing, let alone for clearly incorrect interpretations. Ideally, fencers should know what the rules are going to be before stepping onto the strip, rather than having to lose a couple touches in order to figure out what the definition of "attack" is on that particular day.

Furthermore, in some cases a referee's interpretations may favor the style of one fencer over the other. If adjusting to the ref requires abandoning one's strongest actions in favor of weaker ones, even a fencer who successfully adjusts will be placed at an objective disadvantage through no fault of their own.

In other words, fencers who want to be successful should certainly try to adapt to the referee as best they can. But, for the sake of the basic integrity and fairness of the game, referees should do their best to make "adjusting to the ref" unnecessary.

[AndrewH]

But, for the sake of the basic integrity and fairness of the game, referees should do their best to make "adjusting to the ref" unnecessary.

Obviously. But especially at the local level, the quality of refereeing is all over the place. Would you rather lose the bout because you did the same action 5 times in a row and complain that the referee called it wrong, or would you rather abandon your best action and adapt to the referee's incorrect calls to win the bout? A good fencer can win a bout with a variety of different actions. Losing one shouldn't make a difference.

[SpiralGalaxy]

As long as it is a thread: Hey refs - ever had horrible fencers argue about hilariously correct calls and leave the tournament thinking you were a bad referee, then go home and start threads about it?
My favorite thing about these fencers is that since they're already right about everything they never have to get better at fencing. Now if only all the refs out there weren't so bad they could have some success..

I was the ref of a ME DE bout on an ungrounded strip. One light comes on for FOR. It had hit the ground off the side of the strip. Here's the exchange:

Me: <pointing to the far side of the strip> Floor. No touch. En Garde
FOR: <Looking horribly aggrieved> But it was my riposte!
Me: <Starting at him like he's an alien> What?
FOR: <Indignant> Riposte!
Me: There's no right of way in Epee. The touch hit the floor. No touch. En Garde.
FOR: Riposte!
Me: Floor! No touch. En garde.
FOR: <Back en guarde, mumbling> My riposte!

He glared at me the rest of the day, thinking I had stolen one of his touches (he won the bout handily).

I finally realized that when I pointed he thought I was saying that someone was off the strip, and he was arguing that he gets one immediate action after the opponent goes off the strip. He just was having a fun ol' argument without listening enough to tell the difference between 'fencer off the strip' and 'hit to the floor.'

OTOH, I never did see that anecdote on Fnet, so at least he didn't start a thread about it.

[Mac A. Bee]

...ever had horrible fencers argue about hilariously correct calls and leave the tournament thinking you were a bad referee...

I'm continually amazed that fencers don't know minimally their weapon's rules. My coach required that we pass a subset of the referee exam before we were allowed to compete. There are also coaches who don't stay current. Same result - arguing when they're wrong.

[Purple Fencer]

I'm continually amazed that fencers don't know minimally their weapon's rules. My coach required that we pass a subset of the referee exam before we were allowed to compete. There are also coaches who don't stay current. Same result - arguing when they're wrong.

Same goes for armoring sometimes....you don't need an armorer to retape your foil blade!