Where have all the NACs gone?

[Peach]

I was spurred by this discussion to think about what I do in order to get to the number of tournaments I do. I live in the Philadelphia area. Although it's a flourishing division for foil and epee, we are astounded if a mixed divisional sabre event draws 13 people. Mostly it's more likely to be six or fewer, and we self-referee. Sometimes it's people I don't know, other times it's people from my club that I fence all the time. Sunday there are three or four of us going to a local tournament, and I'm devoutly hoping it's not going to be just us.

So in order to have enough decent events to go to (and nationally I can only fence sabre in the Div I's and the veteran events, plus nobody's going to let me go to any European World Cups this century) I scrutinize certain selected schedules, all of which are available on the web. It isn't easy even though I live in a part of the country where there's a lot of fencing. I choose things I can travel to by car, train, or plane at a decent price, where I can get decent competition. These include some of the Mid-Atlantic Circuit (
http://www.paonline.com/bdiamond/marc/ )and some of the Chesapeake Challenge Circuit events (the two circuits overlap and are held in Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, and D.C.).

I check the schedule for the Metropolitan Division, Maryland, Virginia, DC, New England, and Harrisburg. I take the train to New York City to sabre tournaments at Fencers Club, I drive down to Baltimore for Charm City, DC for Captain Steere & Cherry Blossom and a couple of other events, Harrisburg for the Susquehanna, and up to Boston for the Pomme de Terre. Some of those events are really excellent. Others are merely a good time and an opportunity to fence people I don't normally fence.

Of all these events I think Pomme de Terre is my favorite, not just because it is held where my daughter goes to school but because the organizers run it well, get excellent referees, and give out hilarious prizes. I loved the Veterans Challenge held in the same place but couldn't make it this year--it was right after Veteran Worlds and right after my school year started (I'm a teacher).

I wish I could do Duel in the Desert this year but I got snagged to referee elsewhere.

Capitol Division: http://capdiv.usfencing.org/
Harrisburg: http://www.paonline.com/bdiamond/hbrgdiv/index.html
Maryland: http://www.maryland-fencing.org/
New England: http://www.neusfa.org/
New York (Metropolitan Division) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nyfencing-saber/
Philadelphia: http://www.phildiv-usfa.org/
Virginia: http://snider.com/va-usfa/

[Inquartata]

Well, yes, except that double-binds are fallacious by their nature...

[swordsen]

Edew said "As far as I know, Div I NACs require a "C" or higher, not "B" or higher. And there's no plans to make it "B" for next season, AFAIK." earlier. According to the USFA newsletter I got today the 2003/04 nacs are going to be limited to A's and B's.
(Unless of course my senility is finally kicking in and I either can't read anymore or forget what I saw, I'll check again tomorrow when I go to work where it is sitting in my box)

[Inquartata]

Nope, it's not Oldtimer's setting in. The front page sayeth: "The High Performance Committee (HPC) re3commends that for the 2003-2004 season the eligibility criteria for NAC Division I tournaments be that fencers have a "B" or "A" classification or be ranked in the top 32 in the senior point standings, the top 16 in the junior point standings or the top 8 in the cadet point standings." Of course, it does not say that the recommendation has been accepted, but if it's appearing in the newsletter it's a pretty good bet that it will be, I think...

So then Cs will have only Div II events in which to fence...

[DJ Apostrophe]

I believe the reason it was announced in the newsletter is so that when they go to ratify it at summer nationals, there won't be any *****ing about how it wasnt announced, etc. Last year when this was proposed, Linda Merritt was the only one in the room fighting against it (from what i've heard)... she was the one who fought to have the C's included... so all you Cs out there who will go to a div I nac this year... you can thank her... It is my feeling that this will carry over the summer... and if it does i think it will have several effects... A: costs for national events will increase further... you are narrowing the base from which you are drawing your income... and B:attendance for Div III nacs will fall. Div III nacs become fairly pointless...especially if the div III event is fenced after the Div II. Right now... by placing in the top 4 at a Div III event, you give yourself an opportuinity to fence div I (by earning your C) after the change, however, you do nothing to help your situation in the Div I event... some people may use div III as a warm up for div II if the div III is first... but why bother to fence a div III? you may do well and earn your c... but then you can only fence div II... and earning a C at a local level isnt all that difficult (assuming a decent size division)... I believe the goal of the usfa is to eventually move to a similar model that they are going towards with the youth regional competitions... i believe that at some point in the future there will be a regional circuit of three or four events a year, from which you can earn points to qualify onto a 'regional team' or whatever you want to call it... the members of the regional teams will be allowed to fence in the three - four national level events over the following season...with one national level event (summer nats style) that you can still qualify to through a direct path (sectionals) ... thats where i see things going...
-w

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by DJ Apostrophe
some people may use div III as a warm up for div II if the div III is first... but why bother to fence a div III? you may do well and earn your c... but then you can only fence div II...

Because you enjoy fencing and want to fence some more, as opposed to being single-mindedly focused only on advancing in rating? Maybe that's just me...

[DJ Apostrophe]

inq,
i for one actually agree with you... but another nights hotel costs + another tournament fee + the possibility of more expensive airfaire might be enough to convince me that one tournament in a weekend is enough...
-w
p.s. im trying to play devil's advocate so don't take anything i say personally

[Inquartata]

Heh, if you're playing Devil's advocate you SHOULD be on my side!

[edew]

Originally posted by swordsen
Edew said "As far as I know, Div I NACs require a "C" or higher, not "B" or higher. And there's no plans to make it "B" for next season, AFAIK." earlier. According to the USFA newsletter I got today the 2003/04 nacs are going to be limited to A's and B's.
(Unless of course my senility is finally kicking in and I either can't read anymore or forget what I saw, I'll check again tomorrow when I go to work where it is sitting in my box)

Yes, well, the "AFAIK" I wrote preceded the USFA Newsletter that I got later that day. After reading it, I agree that the 2003-2004 season will allow just B's and A's in Div I NACs.

I think the way to go is this: the two years after the Olympics (2000-2001 and 2001-2002 from the 2000 Olympics, as an example) will allow D's and higher to Div I NACs. The third year, 2002-2003, will allow C's and higher to the Div I NACs, and the year of the Olympics, 2003-2004, will accept only B's and A's.

That way, during the off years, it will be an opportunity to build up new fencers, give the new fencers opportunities to fence the top fencers, as well as let the top fencer work on mental skills with the less technically skilled fencers. Then, the two years prior to the Olympics, drive up the level of competition to make things stronger for the top fencers.

Personally, I think every top fencer should fence an "easy" tournament prior to a major event. One needs to go in to a tournament knowing that he or she is the definite favorite, and makes sure by winning it decisively. It's all mental by that time, and the pressure is on the top fencer to win it. No excuses like saying, "oh, I took second," or "well, I made the finals".

For many years, I just couldn't re-earn my A. I would go to a tournament being the prohibitive favorite and lose to someone else, giving them the A. Then, I went to the 1999 All-Cals back at my alma mater, UCSB. I was the definite strong fencer there, with no one else higher than a C there. I won, but I had to work it, and I can feel the pressure build up to win it during the semi-final and final bouts. I had to fight myself more than I had to fight my opponent. But what happened after I won that? Five or so weeks later, I won the PCCs, beating three A's to re-earn my A. Then, later that year, I won the DITD, beating several A's in the process.

Since then, I'm a fervent believer that every fencer, especially the top fencers, must attend a tournament where he or she is the prohibitive favorite and win it. When you go to a major event, the number one enemy is your own doubts. Those doubts must be extinguished and to do so requires winning a tournament.

For a Jed Dupree, such an event may be an NAC. But for others like an Alex Wood or a Gabe Sinkin, such an event may be a lower level, like a DITD or a Long Beach Invitational (and even then, they may be too high). The event must be one where you are widely expected to win. So, in the case of the DITD or the LBI, even an Alex Wood or Gabe Sinkin may not be expected to win, and it might require a lower-level local tournament.

It is so important to actually win a tournament, no matter how easy it is. Dmitri Kirk-Gordon is a perfect example. Last season was his break-out season. What did he do? He attended the first two Bay Cup events and won them, beating Tim Chang and Sean McClain for the gold in the two events. That was what gave him the cojones to do well in national and other subsequent tournaments.

[sean]

I guess the upshot of the decision for me is that I'll just fly to the PCS tournaments, rather than flying to the (two) Div II NACs. They're typically held in places i actually want to go in any case.

As far as Nationals goes, after waiting 5 1/2 hours after pools for my first DE, I think I'll skip out on that one from here on out.

Nothing against Overland Park, Greenville SC, Or Ohio in the wintertime, but given the cost, time commitment, quality of competition and potential benefit to me, I'd rather hit the PCS tourneys.

As far as ratings, until this decision took effect, I could give damn about a rating. A rating is in many cases reflective of your performance on a given day sometime in the past four years. I'd be willing to bet that everybody here has fenced a weak A, a strong C, etc. at some point in their careers.

[oiuyt]

Inq- you've slightly misunderstood me. What I meant to say (perhaps unclearly) was that IF one takes advantage of opportunities such as DitD, PdT, CEC (Canadian Elite Circuit), etc. and STILL doesn't find enough high-level fencing THEN one can complain about the lack of national events. I'm not saying that those would be enough, enough is a very personal and variable thing. What I was pointing out was that there are MANY more opportunities available (that for most intents and purposes are at least as good as a NAC for most people) than are taken advantage of. Until one is close to exhausting the opportunities available I don't feel that one has a right to complain about the number of such opportunities. Well, okay, one has the right to complain, but I don't feel that I have an obligation to care. :)

As to finding out about the events, how did you find out about the LBI or DitD? Word of mouth is huge in these things. Most events that are big will be findable online. Most will include previous years' results. Talk to people, find out where/when the big regional events are. The Mid-Atlantic Regional Circuit / Chesapeake Challenge Circuit (mostly the same but not identical) events I know about because I went to school in Maryland. The Heartland Circuit I found when looking for other regional equivalents. Ditto the Pacific Coast Section Circuit. Pomme de Terre I found out about because I now live in Massachusetts. The Canadian Elites because a couple of friends went up to Montreal for one last year. I've heard of the Crescent City Open in New Orleans. I know nothing about it, but the fact that I've HEARD of it means that it might be worth checking. Talk to people, search the web. Then talk to more people and find out what the typical draw is. If it's only 30 people and a C tournament that's probably not worth going to. 40 people and an A tournament may or may not be worth going to depending on how far from you it is and what you're looking for.

I'm not sure I agree with this, at least not bilaterally. I have always gotten the most, learning-wise, out of fencing people MUCH better than me. However, I know the same may not be true of the superior fencer.

Okay, your personal experiences differ from the theory behind the design of the competitive schedule currently being used. The definition of a useful bout is the one which the USFA believes in and takes into account when deciding on scheduling decisions. Their theory may or may not fit how people learn. Even if their theory is right for most people (as I believe) it may nto be how YOU best learn. The current thinking goes that MOST people get the most benefit from bouts at or slightly above their current level.

I'd listed the div II and div III NACs as seperate events, not seperate competitions. The words are not interchangable. They fit somewhere between for the arguments at hand, they don't count as two weekends of fencing, but they are clearly worth more than a single-event weekend. If you're eligible for other age-groups I would have counted those seperately as well, I was taking as a default case non-vet seniors. In any case they definately count as seperate opportunities to earn a C. Seperate opportunities to avoid random bad-luck like a quirky ref, an opponent who did something weird in pools and is badly underseeded, another chance to have a better than normal day. Whether these come 1 day apart or 2 months apart they still count as 2 shots at getting the higher rating.

As to high level fencers coming in to national events without commensurate ratings, it isn't always malicious or because a coach is holding a fencer out. 4 years ago I had a friend who was a junior in college. She'd fenced in high school, had gotten serious in college and had gotten much better. She'd never been to a national event for a large variety of reasons (cost, time from school, etc). The Div II/III NAC came to New Haven which was fairly easy driving distance from Providence. She won the div III WE one day, won the div II WE the next going from a U to a B in 2 days. Was she really a U-caliber fencer before that weekend? No, of course not, she was one of the best collegiate fencers in New England and the best WE in the division. Had she been "held out" of national competitions? No, she just hadn't gone to any. Lots of reasons why that could be.

-B :)

[Inquartata]

Eric---I like your suggestion about setting the rating minimums for Div I NACs differently according to proximity to the Olympics. Alas, it makes too much sense to find favor with the Powers That Be, I fear!

Originally posted by oiuyt
Inq- you've slightly misunderstood me. What I meant to say (perhaps unclearly) was that IF one takes advantage of opportunities such as DitD, PdT, CEC (Canadian Elite Circuit), etc. and STILL doesn't find enough high-level fencing THEN one can complain about the lack of national events. I'm not saying that those would be enough, enough is a very personal and variable thing. What I was pointing out was that there are MANY more opportunities available (that for most intents and purposes are at least as good as a NAC for most people) than are taken advantage of.

Ah! I see. As Emily Litella was wont to say---"Never mind!"

I agree that a large regional event if well attended and well run is as good as a NAC in terms of opportunities to fence. Better, in fact, in some cases----most are Opens, so you get to fence the whole range of ability, not just C and below or what have you.
( They often cost less, too! )

Well, okay, one has the right to complain, but I don't feel that I have an obligation to care.

LOL!

As to finding out about the events, how did you find out about the LBI or DitD?

In the latter case, from people in my Division who had gone
( back in the days when it was foil-epee only and I didn't care ). In the case of the former, again word of mouth. But word of mouth only seems to be nation-wide at national events. I've heard about other PCS events there, but never about others in other regions. Of course, DITD and LBI now have a web presence too if you know where to look, but I cringe at the idea of trying to comb through the schedules of every Division and Section in the country, much less internationally...

Most events that are big will be findable online.

The problem is knowing where to look. Having a name helps immensely ( so I thank you for mentioning the ones you did ).

Whether these come 1 day apart or 2 months apart they still count as 2 shots at getting the higher rating.

Heh, unless you've got creaky knees and a body that keeps mysteriously taking longer and longer to recover after a competition...

Was she really a U-caliber fencer before that weekend? No, of course not, she was one of the best collegiate fencers in New England and the best WE in the division. Had she been "held out" of national competitions? No, she just hadn't gone to any.

Well, but had she not gone to any Divisional ones either? No collegiate ones? Or were those just so strong that she hadn't even managed to eke out an E? How does one get to be the best in ones Division and still be a U? That's the part that perplexes me about the peculiar strength of the field in some NACs.

[DJ Apostrophe]

Many collegiate fencers do not compete in ANY usfa competitions for many reasons, money, time, etc. And collegiate competitions (being collegiate competitions) are not usfa competitions, and thus you cannot earn a usfa rating in a non-usfa competition... its not an uncommon thing to have a high level collegiate fencer who either has a grossly under-appropriate rating or no rating at all.
-w

[Peach]

I cringe at the idea of trying to comb through the schedules of every Division and Section in the country, much less internationally

As I pointed out earlier, it's easier than you make it sound. I sure don't comb through every schedule. It takes me about an hour once the division and section schedules are published to lay out my rough plan for the season. I admit I'm within a few hours of a number of good tournaments, and I'm not making light of that particular difficulty. It's just that it's easier than you'd think to find the divisions and sections which have good events and look at their schedules.

You can also always ask people whether a tournament is worth going to. I often field e-mail inquiries from acquaintances who want to know whether an event in the Philadelphia Division would be a good bet.

Heh, unless you've got creaky knees and a body that keeps mysteriously taking longer and longer to recover after a competition...

Ain't that the truth. I count on maybe three good results a year. The rest of the time I'm recovering from them.

[Peach]

I'm a fervent believer that every fencer, especially the top fencers, must attend a tournament where he or she is the prohibitive favorite and win it. When you go to a major event, the number one enemy is your own doubts. Those doubts must be extinguished and to do so requires winning a tournament.

I, on the other hand, am a fervent believer that in order to do well I have to go beforehand to a tournament where I ought to do well, and fence like a sedated turkey with the crosseyed twitches. It seems to work for me. I apparently have to fence like a cretin SOMEwhere, and I'd rather it was at an event (or, unfortunately, several events) I didn't care about.

I deal with the doubts not by extinguishing them through success, but by facing them and saying, "So...big deal."

========
The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once.

DR. LIZARDO: Where are we going?
RED LECTROID: Planet Ten!
DR. LIZARDO: When?
RED LECTROIDS: Real Soon!

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by Peach
[BAs I pointed out earlier, it's easier than you make it sound. I sure don't comb through every schedule. [/b]

What's your method, then? There are over 60 Divisions...if you didn't already know which ones would be most productive, how would you choose? Proximity? Size? Do you have those Divisions bookmarked? What about Divisions without a website ( I see there are a few )? What about those which post/update their schedules erratically or not at all?

I suspect that you already know generally where "the good ones" are, from experience. If you were starting from scratch you might find it as daunting a process as I do...


Nah, I'm just kvetching again. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

[JEC]

Look at the results from competitions in the USFA website: Div I, iI or III. Pick one level up from where you are. Then using your weapon, which I believe is screaming, I meant saber, then at the bottom of the page it gives you a choice of looking at results by divisions. If you do that for several competitions, you would see the sections that are stronger for each weapon. Then look at their websites and show up.
Good luck

[Peach]

Originally posted by Inquartata
I suspect that you already know generally where "the good ones" are, from experience. If you were starting from scratch you might find it as daunting a process as I do...

Nah, I'm just kvetching again. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

But I *did* start from scratch. I just started from scratch a few years ago. And if you're the man behind the curtain, I'm Pollyanna.

[oiuyt]

Inq- I've done some looking around.

It looks like the heartland circuit events (run by the Midwest Section) aren't particularly well attended, I'd remove them from consideration. I'd heard of them but hadn't attended any (or planned to attend any), sorry about that.
http://www.fencing.net/pages/orgs/heartland/
if you want more info about them.

The Canadian Elite Circuit events are now called Canadian Selection Circuit events. The first occurred in September IIRC, the second occured 10/26-8 in Montreal. They hold their national championships in January which is presumably why both other dates are early in the season.

The Mid-Atlantic Regional Circuit can be found at:
http://www.paonline.com/bdiamond/marc/
Some of which appear much more worth attending than others.
Some of the Chesapeake Challenge Circuit events were noted above by Peach, they don't appear to have a consolidated website. Several of the events are in common between these two circuits.

The Southwest Sectional Circuit events can be found at:
http://www.southwestfencing.org/SSCC/
These appear to pull fairly good fields.

Pacific Coast Sectional Circuit events are at:
http://www.pcsfencing.com/
Some of these are definately worth going to (LBI, DitD), others appear less so.

The Great Lakes Section has a circuit but it appears that these basically just end up being local tournaments in each division and are therefore unlikely to be worth travelling to for the most part.

Individual tournaments that aren't part of a circuit that I know about that are worth looking into include:
The Remenyik Open held at Northwestern, near Chicago, IL(in October)
The Pomme de Terre held at Brandeis, near Boston, MA (in June)

I notice that I've found sectional circuits for PCS, SWS, GLS, Mid-West, and Mid-Atlantic. I KNOW that North Atlantic Section doesn't have one. Metro-NY does not have one. Southeast Section doesn't appear to have one. Pacific Northwest doesn't have a sectional website, looking at divisional pages they don't appear to have a circuit. Rocky Mountain Section doesn't appear to run a circuit. So of the 10 sections 5 appear to have circuits of presumably larger regional events (Mid-Atlantic Section doesn't run the CCC or MARC, but they basically cover the section geographically, the other 4 sections mentioned appear to actually organize the circuits). In most cases some of the events seem to be better than others (shocking I know).

Hope that helps. If anyone else knows of things that I missed, please help both Inq and myself by posting them here, preferably with URLs. Thanks.
-B :)

[Inquartata]

Thanks very much for your help, oiuyt! ( We used to have a saying in the Army: "If you have something you have to do, and you wait long enough, someone may do it for you". )