Yet Another Cup Thread

[Fencergrl]

Being a female coach I'm looking for a male perspective on avoiding Santa Syndrome ... otherwise known as having a Big Red Swollen Sack.... Yes... I hide my head in shame as this is yet another "Cup thread".

Wait!. don't run away! After all it's already too late. From now on, everytime you hear about Santa you're going to cringe (or at least a little more) so hear me out.

I go into schools and community centres and introduce fencing to thousands of students every year. I bring masks, chest protectors, fencing jackets, gloves and foils (I rig these to behave like epees when doing electric fencing).

While we use the sabre target area, & I recommend cups. It's not uncommon for some kid to get nailed in their dangley bits (about 1 student per 100). Nothing serious (or so it appears), but my husband commented that if I supply chest protectors, shouldn't I also supply cups?

My first reaction was ewww... would guys even use them if provided? I've never known a club to provide them, but then again my situation is different. What's your opinion?

[foibles]

Consider googling "Groin Protectors" (Images), flip through a few pages, and see if anything makes sense.

Seems like you'd want something quick and easy to put on and remove.

[Fencergrl]

Yup... already there. However mostly I'm seeking opinions as to whether:

1) It makes sense to provide them.
2) Whether most people think a mixed class of grade 11/12's would use them.

The only thing I can relate it to is chest protectors....

Some girls are shy about the chest protectors (in the schools). Girls in fencing classes behave like any other female fencer does about them... Classes that have only girls in them find them freakin' hilarious and put on the largest ones I have, then snap pictures of each other.

It never fails in mixed classes that I struggle to keep some boys from putting on the more curvy women's style. Gratefully, this is something I don't have to deal with in the community fencing classes (aside from one kid who donned pigtails and chest protector to try and get into a woman's event at a tournament... unsuccessfully I might add).

With cups... would the guys have to head off to the change room to put it on, or would they put it on in the gym? Is this reasonable to expect?

[foibles]

For demonstrations that have any kind of "Come on up and try it!" type of thing, I would get a couple groin protectors that can fit outside their pants.

For an actual fencing class though, I'd simply add some verbiage in whatever waiver you have them sign or info sheet you might hand out that "male protective athletic cups are recommend but not required" and leave it completely up to them.

Its a very personal item. Not really the kind of thing you'd want to throw in a basket when you're done only to grab a different one later. A rather horrid thought.

Just my .02

[Fencergrl]

For demonstrations that have any kind of "Come on up and try it!" type of thing, I would get a couple groin protectors that can fit outside their pants.

My husband suggested that. I assumed that would be embarrassing for the wearer, but perhaps not (as yet another male suggested it).

[fdad]

For demonstrations that have any kind of "Come on up and try it!" type of thing, I would get a couple groin protectors that can fit outside their pants.

For an actual fencing class though, I'd simply add some verbiage in whatever waiver you have them sign or info sheet you might hand out that "male protective athletic cups are recommend but not required" and leave it completely up to them.

Its a very personal item. Not really the kind of thing you'd want to throw in a basket when you're done only to grab a different one later. A rather horrid thought.

Just my .02

The difference is that Chest protectors are typically worn outside the t-shirt while cups are worn inside the jock strap. I would not recommend anyone use a used cup. You might want to offer a cheap but new cup to anyone in the class.

[Fencergrl]

That was my sense of it, but then again I'm the wrong gender to trust my opinion. Although I'm not sure I want to be selling cups to kids, I agree that they seem to be a personal item, and have said that to kids who wanted me to supply them.

To be truthful it surprised me that occasionally guys ask me if they're supplied as it seemed a little gross to use previously worn cups, even though they are not worn against the skin.

[parrythis]

The short answer is "no". While I am a well-known proponent of using them, they are more "personal" than a chest protector. You should encourage your male students to obtain them, but it is not your responsibility to provide them.

Look to other sports for your guideline. They may provide the "outer" equipment, but it is up to the individual to provide the "under" equipment.

[Fencergrl]

That's a good way of putting it and seems to be how I viewed it... yet when my husband mentioned it, it got me questioning if I was correct.

[BrianH]

I think you'd be safest from a liability standpoint to require them (they're not that expensive nor uncomfortable and boys who have participated in hockey, soccer, baseball or cricket should have experience with them). I would not, however, provide them.

Even some of my college-age female students are shy about chest protectors, and won't put them on in front of guys.

[misha]

Its a very personal item. Not really the kind of thing you'd want to throw in a basket when you're done only to grab a different one later. A rather horrid thought.

That's how I look at the fencing masks.

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[magic_moose]

You might want to have a "demo model" to show off. Then just tell them where to get them and that they only cost about $10-$12.

[Fiat Slug]

I assume you have a liability release waiver, right? Just put on there that cups are strongly recommended. If you say that they are required but don't enforce it, then you may have some liability. If you want, you can bring a few to sell to the people who really want them but didn't get the in advance.

I would not recommend letting people "borrow" these for obvious reasons.

Another option is to incorporate the cost of the cups into the class fees and give one to each male student.

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[DHCJr]

I am afraid it is the macho image they are trying to show. Even our fencing rules show that they want to protect the delicate flower of womanhood. When I first started the rulebook had two rules (27.4 and 215 (Foil) that required breast protectors for women. There was no requirement or even a recommendation for men. By 1995 when ladies started fencing Epee internationally the rule was added to 315. There was no requirement specifically for Sabre, but since the USFA rulebook is based on the FIE and the ladies were protected from fencing Sabre there was no need for the rule there.

When they went to the current TOM rulebook in 1999 the rule was combined and put in M.25.4. But for the men it was only added as a recommendation and put in the appendix.

I wish our illustrious leaders would get some balls (pun intended) and require the use, but I am not holding my breath.

[DavidX]

Maybe its the way I fence or maybe because the target area is so big - but I get hit in the dong like twice a night. Luckily since I am fire-tempered steel I can walk it off in a few seconds but I think that no matter how unsavoury the thought of handling a bunch of cups or getting a bunch of snickering boys to put them on is - it is far better than the alternative of a truly damaging hit to the yin yang twins.
There is nothing good about that situation.

Maybe you could sew some kind of impact resistant material into the crotch of the fencing jacket - make it a one shot deal and not have to worry about handing out a bunch of plastic weiner shells.

That's right, I said it --..
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weiner shells

[rcmatthews]

Personally, I find cups to be uncomfortable so I don't wear one. I fence sabre so it's not a huge deal. Last night I got tapped for the first time in several years.

I would say that if a guy wants to wear one, he will probably bring it with him after seeing your strong recommendation. I don't think they should be a requirement. I think most dudes know the extreme pain we're exposing ourselves to by not wearing one.

[Downtown]

To personal. But do not talk to the kids about getting one, send a note to the parents.

It is a rite of sport passage, when you and your Dad head to the store to get your first jock together. No kid should be denined the weirdness of that event.

[Gav]

While we use the sabre target area, & I recommend cups. It's not uncommon for some kid to get nailed in their dangley bits (about 1 student per 100). Nothing serious (or so it appears), but my husband commented that if I supply chest protectors, shouldn't I also supply cups?

My first reaction was ewww... would guys even use them if provided? I've never known a club to provide them, but then again my situation is different. What's your opinion?

I seriously doubt that guys would use them. I certainly wouldn't use one that someone else had been using.

Edit: Whenever this topic comes up I am left with the impression that, for some reason, you guys in the US hit each other in the happy sacks far more often than we do.

[Phrogger]

I'm not a guy but here's an idea:

What if you supply the boxing/karate type groin protectors that are worn on the outside, and "require" them unless the boys bring their own cups? If it's too embarrassing they'll have an incentive to get their own.

[Fencergrl]

To answer a few posts:

DHCJr: We're not debating the rules or the requirement to enforce or not enforce the practise. We are discussing people who are trying fencing for the first time. The amount of time they are using the blades consist of 1/2 hour of drills & 2-4 bouts.

DavidX: Good idea! Although I have a vacuum former, allowing me to mould something, I'm thinking a flexible plastic would be easy to add and provide a little added protection in the jacket. We can arrange to have you visit so I can test it out. Since you already claim to be fire-tempered I need not worry about product failure.

Downtown: I am a contractor. It's unlikely that the notes would make it home, plus these kids are old enough to drive, nearly old enough to drink, and can enlist. Since PE is an elective, many of these kids play sports and have already made the choice whether to own a cup or not.

Gav: In this case I have a bunch of athletes who are trying a new sport... and are a little too enthusiastic about hitting. This seldom seems to happen around my regular fencers.

Phrogger: It's a careful line I walk. The PE classes have a budget. My fencing classes often takes the lion's share of that budget. The kids usually play a role in deciding, either before hand or with their feedback. The PE teacher decides on a number of factors...what sports they can afford, which ones allow everyone to participate.... etc.

I get paid per student. If a bunch of male students decide that it's too embarrassing to wear a cup on the outside of their pants to fence, they may walk... this doesn't bode well for my paycheque or my business, in the long term, nor is it good for the sport of fencing.

That said, I'm not willing to sacrifice one's safety for a paycheque. If I was I would just carry on and not be considering solutions that increase the level of safety without sacrificing my student/client relations.

Once again, I think that DavidX's suggestion is one of the most viable options. As many of you confirmed my suspicions that if I bought cups, few would wear a previously used one. However, a piece of flexible plastic would be seen as sensible to them. From the looks on their faces, many guys seem to be thinking that the crotch area of standard fencing jackets offers very little protection.

On the other hand... adding it may provide a false security as it doesn't replace a cup. So perhaps strong recommendations without doing jacket alterations is a better solution.