Strip/Piste length vs runoff (POLL)

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Perhaps a compromise would be to paint two sets of lines (endlines + warning lines) in different colors. One set would be the "short strip with runoff" set, and the other set the "full length no runoff" set. That way you can use whichever set is more appropriate for the situation, as long as you let the fencers know which set is in use.

I personally would prefer full-length strips. Consider this - how often does someone get pushed off the end of the strip? Compare that to how often fencing occurs in the last 2 meters. Maximize the one that is more common.

Dan

I think this is the right solution. I HATE short strips, I don't really care much about runoff-- for practice, I'll just pick a different moment to run past, for competition, I'll just run into the wall or the crowd of dumb people.

But I can imagine wanting different things depending on the training exercise/people involved/etc, and people here seem split too.

Why not two colors?

[telkanuru]

NYAC rules- if your foot touches the back wall, you're off

[bob46]

NYAC rules- if your foot touches the back wall, you're off

so you can lean on the wall using your head and have both heels on the strip? ooh. interesting form.

[CvilleFencer]

I am surprised so many people are okay with shorter strips! It is anathema to me. I won't fence in a tourney that does not have very close to at least 14 meter strips and at least 1.5 meter width and I probably would not send my fencers to one. If you fence at a VA division tourney, that is the acceptable standard, and it is what all the clubs in the area save one have in their facility.

My club has 6 full size strips, with 4 non-electric strips, which serve as the referee area during tourneys. I could probably have 8-10 strips in my club if I "cheated" and crunched the space, but I would really only be "cheating" my fencers in the end. I would really suggest full length strips.

[ysbadadden]

I don't get it. First, the run-off at the end of the strip is a safety requirement -- I've seen a friend get a mild concussion backing into a cinder-block wall two feet beyond the end of a strip. Second, a 14-meter strip in a 14-meter room isn't a full-length strip anyway (it's a 12.5 meter strip at best), nor is any strip you can't step off the back of with both feet.

[seak]

I have actually done a fair amount of fencing (saber) in both situations, and generally I'll vote for shorter strips. If there's a wall to hit at the end of the strip, it makes it neigh impossible to drive someone off the end of the strip, and people don't have to learn how to stop themselves or fence with one foot off.

A strip that's a meter short on either end doesn't seem to really change the game. A wall at the end of the strip does.

The downside to the short strip of course is that you may teach yourself to take fewer steps back then you can in reality. It's not a perfect solution.

[ladyofshalott99]

Having spent some time recently at a salle with a practice room with short strips and *no* runoff (or what little there was was taken up by bags, jackets, etc.): My vote is for regulation length, two feet behind--but ONLY if there's an X marking off the warning area. I can usually see that in my peripheral vision and adjust accordingly; I did not have that luxury last weekend.

[Fiat Slug]

I agree with ladyofshalott99's comment wrt warning area. I would love to fence at a Bay Cup venue that has distinctly marked warning areas. Most clubs just have a warning line but that's difficult to see.

One other option regarding the strip length is to shorten the distance between the centerline and the guardline. I've seen this at some clubs and I think it's a reasonable compromise.

.

[jjefferies]

I am surprised so many people are okay with shorter strips! It is anathema to me. I won't fence in a tourney that does not have very close to at least 14 meter strips and at least 1.5 meter width and I probably would not send my fencers to one. If you fence at a VA division tourney, that is the acceptable standard, and it is what all the clubs in the area save one have in their facility.

My club has 6 full size strips, with 4 non-electric strips, which serve as the referee area during tourneys. I could probably have 8-10 strips in my club if I "cheated" and crunched the space, but I would really only be "cheating" my fencers in the end. I would really suggest full length strips.

Perhaps that's a luxury that living in a less populated area allows you. I don't know your situation, your locale's economics, nor do I know how competitive your club/fencers are. I do know that the higher population areas have similar problems. See the comment someone made about fencing at NYAC. And I know that in the SF Bay area regulation strips are a rare exception particularly at the more competitive clubs. Someone commented that CFA, a CenCal club, has regulation strips. They have a new facility which I haven't had a chance to check out. But if true they are the only ones. I did ask my colleagues about CFA and there was hemming and hawing before agreeing that we need to learn more.

We would be amenable to your suggestion if it were realistic. Unfortunately it is not. We are working hard to make our new strips regulation or close to. And the original question was with regard to what is preferable with our existing strips. But a 56 foot strip in a 50 foot building is still technically a challenge for us. If you have suggestions about how to do that then please do post them.

[oiuyt]

One other option regarding the strip length is to shorten the distance between the centerline and the guardline. I've seen this at some clubs and I think it's a reasonable compromise.

What a great way to materially change nearly every touch in sabre (as well as less frequent issues in the other two weapons).

-B

[jjefferies]

I agree with ladyofshalott99's comment wrt warning area. I would love to fence at a Bay Cup venue that has distinctly marked warning areas. Most clubs just have a warning line but that's difficult to see.

One other option regarding the strip length is to shorten the distance between the centerline and the guardline. I've seen this at some clubs and I think it's a reasonable compromise.
.

Your comment about the warning area is appreciated and will pass it along. But EDEW made an interesting (to me) comment on BayArea epee, if I remember it correctly, that the order of precedence should be the 4 meters between the on guard lines, then proper runoff and then proper length, i.e. meaning the warning area and then the space between the warning area and the on guard line. This makes sense to me as the 14 meter strip length is obviously a compromise that a committee came up with. There's nothing particularly holy about it. The primary issues are the fencers starting at the appropriate distance, having enough room (runoff) to safely execute their actions, and then having some space to work back and forth in.

Please feel free to critique the views above.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

What a great way to materially change nearly every touch in sabre (as well as less frequent issues in the other two weapons).

-B

I agree.

I would not like fencing on short strips, but I would do so if given a good reason to do so.

I do not think I would ever knowingly choose to fence on a strip with short center-to-guard distance.

[CvilleFencer]

We would be amenable to your suggestion if it were realistic. Unfortunately it is not. We are working hard to make our new strips regulation or close to. And the original question was with regard to what is preferable with our existing strips. But a 56 foot strip in a 50 foot building is still technically a challenge for us. If you have suggestions about how to do that then please do post them.

Uhm, I think you missed my point. I was not going off on an off topic tangent about how great 56 meter strips are. I was going off on an on topic tangent that I would prefer full length with shorter run off, and went a little bit into why.

[ApAperture]

CFA. it sucks though. never, ever go there.

...did you mean the strips suck or the club?

[bob46]

...did you mean the strips suck or the club?

i did mean the club.

stanford also has full length strips. idk the coaches all that well. i dont like their bay cups though. iffy reffing at times.

[Superscribe]

Whatever you do, please don't compromise. Have the right length, or shorten enough so there's enough run off.

[Fiat Slug]

What a great way to materially change nearly every touch in sabre (as well as less frequent issues in the other two weapons).

-B

My bad. I'm not nimble enough to take advantage of a strip that has moved the guard lines so I wasn't aware of the downside.

[pinkelephant]

Uhm, I think you missed my point. I was not going off on an off topic tangent about how great 56 meter strips are. I was going off on an on topic tangent that I would prefer full length with shorter run off, and went a little bit into why.

I'm just trying to imagine fencing on a 56 metre piste...

[fdad]

Perhaps a compromise would be to paint two sets of lines (endlines + warning lines) in different colors. One set would be the "short strip with runoff" set, and the other set the "full length no runoff" set. That way you can use whichever set is more appropriate for the situation, as long as you let the fencers know which set is in use.

I personally would prefer full-length strips. Consider this - how often does someone get pushed off the end of the strip? Compare that to how often fencing occurs in the last 2 meters. Maximize the one that is more common.

Dan

I think this is by far the best approach- with the additional requirement that the runoff at each end be the same. There is a club nearby where there is very little runoff at one end but a reasonable amount at the other end. Its best if both fencers are equally at risk of backing into the wall and twisting an ankle.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

My bad. I'm not nimble enough to take advantage of a strip that has moved the guard lines so I wasn't aware of the downside.

Sabre is compared to RocksPaperScissors because many of the actions in sabre are based on small changes to a basic "fence"-advance-lunge-"halt- simultaneous" type action. Sabre fencers, even ones with horrible distance and no other skills (*cough* me when fencing sabre *cough*), usually have a pretty good idea of what a simultaneous-off-the-line looks and feels like. It is very much based on the distance available. There are sabre bouts in which each and every action take place between the en garde lines. Bouts in which the majority of actions are within the en garde lines aren't even unusual.

In sabre, it's not a matter of being "nimble", it's a matter of.. well.. fencing sabre. If you took two tall sabre fencers who have always fenced on a regulation strip, and put them on a strip with a shortened middle area, even if they really were aware the strip was shorter there, there's a very good chance of them running into each other/bellpunching each other-- that's how deep the muscle memory is. To avoid it--- they really do have to change the game.


Interesting question: Take a group of fencers, separated by primary weapon, and put them in a room with no lines of any type on the floor, and ask them to mark down where en garde lines ought to be, figure out which group does the best.