Deconstructing the Art and Science of Fencing - Posted

[vivoescrimare]

I move for a pause while Sockpuppet searches desperately for a video that looks like good fencing that he can attribute to one of his students.

Pro tip : Try searching YouTube for "Errol Flynn."

[Bill]

But first, to whomever dismisses another point of view as that of a Troll: You guys have flooded the list. I am defending Nick. You people do not have a clue about his work, you seem obsessed with a "classical" fencing neither he nor I endorse, and well, Blame Craig and his post. You expect it to be taken lying down? What wimps! You guys can dish out uninformed nonsense, and when someone objects....oh! oh!

But my biggest point was that the very fencing you claim to know and love is not going to last much longer in the Olympics. We all should be working in common to find those things in fencing condescending idiots do not see it might be worthwhile looking for in its 400-year history. No, Dick, Jane, Spot, Downunder, that does not mean historical fencing. Look up the word "classical." Don't rely on the Association for Historical Fencing website or a coach who scored low on the verbal SAT and likes cool video.

But as to the misreadings elsewhere. Loading the dice with tough rules? Just what does anyone think has happened to FIE rules since 1913? Adapted to make things easier and easier to run up the score. All in the name of "the superior fencer." Like all those geeks who think they are geniuses because they read Ayn Rand. C'mon, man. What passes for a parry in the FIE now? If penalizing the double and requring a solid hit are too hard for your champions, well, keep on fencing in your electronic illusion. John Galt needs help? Always did.

To whomever thinks I mean that fencing should be just more aesthetically pleasing--that is NOT what I wrote. I said it should be understandable (or Richard Cohen did). That is different Clearly, if I have written the double is penalized here, scoring is not abolished. It just gets harder! We cannot have that, now can we? No, the poor things train so hard!

Let me remind you all of something. Whether you like Nick or not, he has reached a public larger than the one attained by any of you. 50,000 copies of Art and Science. The Apocalypse is nigh! Craig, attack Nick again, and I will be back. I have read the backchannel. As for the rest--thanks for the fun!

[Bill]

I know I have won when you guys start that adolescent nonsense. So long, pleasant dreams, and may someday you grow up.

[I_luv_saber]

Tried being civil, effendi. You weren't having it. Until you decide to play nice, happy trolling!

[prototoast]

I tried to be nice with my holocaust comments, but now you classical fencers have gone too far.

Classical fencing is nothing more than bad fencers who attempt to mask their lack of skill with vague notions of historical aesthetics.

[migopod]

Let me remind you all of something. Whether you like Nick or not, he has reached a public larger than the one attained by any of you. 50,000 copies of Art and Science. The Apocalypse is nigh! Craig, attack Nick again, and I will be back. I have read the backchannel. As for the rest--thanks for the fun!

May I remind you that American Idol was the among highest rated prime-time shows in 2009, yet it is devoid of substance and without much inherent value.

[telkanuru]

In his absence, this one is a classic, as well as apt:

No longer absent, sorry for the delay

You're right. Words can't describe how surreal this thread is, and that people are actually taking this guy seriously. Maybe a picture will do. Well, a couple pictures.

[vivoescrimare]

Because everyone knows you won't ACTUALLY stop reading the thread, even if you refrain from posting - we all note how you sling a lot of nonsense, argue ambiguously over a point that you don't (can't) explicitly state, and then flee when confronted.

A.) Provide some video of something you think is "Your fencing." You've been asked repeatedly. You don't because you can't.

B.) Does your vaunted club where Olympic Medalists would be beginners have a webpage? Or does that not fit with your notion of "Historical?"

C.) Several people have expressed in interest in seeing some of your fencing style in action and possibly wanting to fence against it. Clearly you're frightened of these challenges, but your pretending not to see them is cute and deserved to be noted.

D.) Notice how I said, "Hey Bill!" and actually addressed you? Take notes.

E.) The apocalypse is nigh? First, your phrasing is ridiculous. Second, please come back, you're always good for a laugh. Third, crawl back under your rock. Sport fencing is gaining popularity every day in the US, let alone in more mainstream, powerful fencing cultures.

Happy trolling, puppet.

[fencerchica]

I really had my fingers crossed for some fun blooper reels. You mean people, you scared it away too soon!

[Superscribe]

I know I have won when you guys start that adolescent nonsense. So long, pleasant dreams, and may someday you grow up.

Bill. I've listened to your posts. I'm genuinely intrigued in the remarkable little way which you go about conducting and teaching sword play. Please give me a website or an address to which I can visit.

I'm truly intrigued. You can PM me.

[neevel]

Well that was amusing- kind of like watching Kent Hovind attempt to carry on a discourse with a respected, credentialed paleoanthropologist.

[Phaeton]

Well. I think Bill proved for himself why sport-fencing is more popular. Bravo for affirming that most fencers don't like getting talked down to, or want to deal with the pedantics of "classicism."

[NGV]

A.) Provide some video of something you think is "Your fencing." You've been asked repeatedly. You don't because you can't.

B.) Does your vaunted club where Olympic Medalists would be beginners have a webpage? Or does that not fit with your notion of "Historical?"

C.) Several people have expressed in interest in seeing some of your fencing style in action and possibly wanting to fence against it. Clearly you're frightened of these challenges, but your pretending not to see them is cute and deserved to be noted.

Given that Bill talked about "Soest" and the "Sporthalle," I'm pretty sure that
this is the webpage:

http://soestfechten.programmierwerks...nheute_en.html

There are a couple of videos there, and some more here.

[neevel]

Well. I think Bill proved for himself why sport-fencing is more popular. Bravo for affirming that most fencers don't like getting talked down to, or want to deal with the pedantics of "classicism."

Particularly when it comes from a marginalized nobody who lacks any sort of credentials, results, or standings save his own high opinion of himself and his club.

I'm picturing a member of a miniscule splinter denomination writing a screed to the Pope describing how he and the entire Catholic church will burn for eternity.

[Wafath]

The dirty secret in the FIE is that it is riddled by disputes. It always has been. At the heart of them is the imperative to score points within a limited time period and so resolving the double.

There is no secret. We spend more time here discussing those disputes than almost any other topic. But your second statement is false.

And yes, the sport has changed. So has Basketball. But we don't seem to have BB leagues that require two hands on the ball for every throw, no dunking and no shot-clock. Why?

Craig, I am embarrassed for you that you posted those video clips. Yes, the “fencers” were very quick. But the footwork was in fact undisciplined (my God man! Those right feet!), and only strenuous bladework made up for it. The action was erratically timed, no sense of Tempo, just tease and swat, and “hits” achieved by arcing “thrusts” that would have been disallowed here in Soest as inadequate.

That you find it "erratic", and "no sense of Tempo" shows us that you do not understand it. The entire game in the Vezzali/Sahanaeva bout is tempo & distance. Look, I don't entirely understand all of what I see in that bout, but I see actions thought out, planned and executed brilliantly.

You guys have flooded the list.

Flooding? Hardly. This is a healthy list. You want to see flooding, watch the list that forms the next time the USFA hints at changing the NACs....

Our motto here is "Come and fence us," Downunder Expert. Visit. See if we are crap, as you put it.

...

We do not need a scoring light, or strawberry points, or any other prosthetic to adjudicate fencing. We want to put you out of business, Downunder. Sorry. Good fencing will do that.

So, Bill, Let us assume for the moment that you are not a Troll.

Agree for the moment that we have a fundamental disagreement on what constitutes proper form. Furthermore, we lack a common authority that can judge. We both uniformly dismiss each others' experts.

How can we settle this dispute without it devolving to so much fan-boy arguing?

We have a system. The scoring box, esp in epee, lets us remove the subjective problem. But, the one thing that would let us have a truly fair contest between philosophies is verboten.

So we are at an impasse. You cowardly refuse to test your students to objective measure, and we do. *shrug* Oh well.

W

[migopod]

Given that Bill talked about "Soest" and the "Sporthalle," I'm pretty sure that
this is the webpage:

http://soestfechten.programmierwerks...nheute_en.html

There are a couple of videos there, and some more here.

Sure looks like the right place.

Why do classical fencing videos always depict either complete beginners or in the case of the Youtube clip of Nick, the instructor "just goofing off" with a student?

I don't think I've ever seen video of actual classical fencing (bout, not drills) that was being done by someone who was supposed to be proficient. Unless I have, and didn't realize they were not beginners, I guess.

[Superscribe]

Given that Bill talked about "Soest" and the "Sporthalle," I'm pretty sure that
this is the webpage:

http://soestfechten.programmierwerks...nheute_en.html

There are a couple of videos there, and some more here.

Oh yeah, you definately got it.

"All KFS participants work together to achieve the highest quality of fencing. Training sessions are led by William H. Leckie, Jr."

We'll it's good to meet your acquaintance, Bill.

You certainly do not want anyone who know's what they're doing (read: sport fencers) to come to your club and spoil your delusions.

[LordShout]

We are tough enough to go for one-touch epee and sabre. We require a solid hit. We do not automatically dismiss a valid counterattack, so the moment one of those sword arms went up and raddoppio and a real lunge would be hurtling at someone's torso.

Ever video I saw had slow monotempo footwork. It doesn't matter what you want to claim, the fact is that footwork is terrible. One speed is not enough.

[jeff]

I think all the important points have been covered, but I'd like to add a little note.

A few years ago I had a private (and civil) e-mail conversations with Bill. I made an effort to be very polite, and humored him to some degree, but it was clear that he was unqualified to teach fencing (of any style, classical or otherwise).

I knew this on the basis of the videos on his website. It was the same thing as you see on the site now: beginners (which one is the teacher? It's really hard to say) making uncoordinated, slow actions with extremely bad form in fundamental techniques. Bad on-guard positions. Bad footwork. Bad handwork. Bad attacks. Bad defense. I made a number of suggestions, of the type that you would give a beginner who (unfortunately) decided to teach people who had absolutely no knowledge at all. Just an attempt to try to minimize the damage, so to speak. The current videos show that things haven't improved in the last 3 years. It's really a shame.

The one thing I agree with is that it probably was a mistake for Craig to highlight Nicky's silly web page with his trumped up statements about fencing form. It dignifies somebody who clearly has little fencing or teaching ability. Just look at that clip with Evangelista fencing the little kid: NE's on guard position is horrid - he's basically standing up instead of sitting down. He wobbles back and forth instead of making proper advance, retreat or lunge. His weapon and unarmed hands flail around in wide uncoordinated motions, and what's with that weird parry he confuses the kid with. Even if you buy the weak excuse that he was just 'having fun', it's a demonstration of "what to not do" that is a disservice to the poor kid he's "teaching". The kid probably will never recover from this bad teaching.

Since it's fun in some circles to show examples of "bad form" (which may be no more than the camera shutter going off in the middle of a motion), I offer: http://www.classicalfencing.org/april2006tournament/ (I especially like the pulled back arm in the 2nd picture and the curtsy at the bottom), and Crown and Sullins at http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/thirdtime.php - they're leaning forward, leaning backwards, arm pulled all the way back, rear heel off the floor with the toe down. God, get these guys to a fencing class, please.

As migopod says, every video from a CF school always seems to have beginning (or simply inept) fencers. On this board we've seen videos of Crown, Achilleus, and now Nick and Bill. Each one of them had really bad fencing. Not bad sport fencing - plain old bad fencing: bad form, bad tactics, bad execution, at the most elementary levels. The only CF "master" I saw teaching in person was also incapable of solving even simple teaching problems or imparting fundamental skills.

If that's what CF is, I'll stay (problems, controversy and all) with what I think should be called "real fencing".

[noodle]

The one thing I agree with is that it probably was a mistake for Craig to highlight Nicky's silly web page with his trumped up statements about fencing form. It dignifies somebody who clearly has little fencing or teaching ability.

well, i don't think that there would be any need to do so except for the fact that, as bill aptly notes, 50k+ of just 'art and science' have been sold. that is a lot of misinformation that needs to be corrected. not that the whole book is bad, but it does numerous different hit jobs on the sport of fencing.