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  1. #1
    Senior Member Array catwood1's Avatar
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    3 good ideas (reffing version)

    About a year ago, RIT had a thread about having everyone post 3 good ideas somehow related to coaching. I think thats a very good idea, and learned some interesting stuff about coaching. I am proposing the same thing but this time for refereeing.

    Post 3 good ideas somehow related to refereeing. Strip control, seeing actions, dealing with pressure, dealing with head referees, referee development, etc. Really anything related to reffing. Regardless of how obvious it may seem, post them anyway, because surely there is someone reading who wasn't heard it before.

    In RIT's tradition, I'll start.

    1) Always be professional. This is my most important, and the other 2 are spin offs of this. Never do things that jeopardize your professionalism as a ref. Be dressed appropriately, and act appropriately. IMHO, that doesn't mean to wear blues and grays every time your reffing and never have any fun when you're there as a ref, but rather to know the time and place. And be mindful that those things can all have an adverse affect on the perception of your refereeing.

    2) Make the best calls you can make. This means practice at the club. Watch videos of high level fencing. Watch high level fencing in person when you have the chance, and especially with high level referees working the bouts.

    3) Don't be afraid of criticism. At the club, don't shy away from questions or discussions of actions. At the club practice is where you can discuss actions in depth in a way you cannot in competitions. Getting a feeling of what the fencers think of your calls in club has been very helpful to me.
    "Sir, didn't I parry"
    "You didn't take advantage of his blade enough, so no."

    (I guess i should have romanced it a bit more..."

  2. #2
    Posting Hound Array Purple Fencer's Avatar
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    Don't be afraid to make a call....by the same token, don't be afraid to say you're not sure.

    Apply the rules as you understand them, and don't give a #### who wins ($1 to Derek Cotton).

    If you are the coach of a fencer in your pool, guess what? As long as you're reffing, you are NOT that person's coach. Coach all you want if someone else is directing, but if you're running the bout, you MUST put aside coaching until the bout's over.
    Need fencing equipment? See me at H.O.M. Fencing Supply

    Going to your first tournament? Read "Choose yer weapon, Laddie (or: Dude, where's my foil?)"

  3. #3
    Senior Member Array jeff's Avatar
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    Hear hear! And I think a lot of people forget Purple's "don't be afraid to say you're not sure." If you don't know, maybe you missed it or maybe the action wasn't clear - but don't penalize either fencer for making a call you're ambivalent about.

    Add to the list:

    - be crisp and confident making your calls. Nothing saps the fencers confidence like a ref where they can see the little wheels in his head turn for long pauses while he tries to figure out what to call. You either know or you don't and if you didn't know right after 'halt' it's not going to get clearer a minute later!

    - be consistent. Don't call with tight timing some times and not others. Refs aren't robots (there may be dissenting opinions here), but when we're standing up to ref we should strive for repeatable consistency as much as possible. I may not like or agree with how somebody calls a PiL (for example), but once I know what they call and stick with it, I'm okay with it

    - Perhaps an elaboration on catwood's #1: remember that it's not about you. You're not "the show" - the fencers are, and your ego shouldn't be visible. Do your best to make the fencers' experience as satisfactory as you can manage while impartially applying the rules and ensuring that your strip progresses.
    "In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice, theory and practice are different."

  4. #4
    Posting Hound Array Purple Fencer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff View Post
    Hear hear! And I think a lot of people forget Purple's "don't be afraid to say you're not sure." If you don't know, maybe you missed it or maybe the action wasn't clear - but don't penalize either fencer for making a call you're ambivalent about.
    First think my first instructor in college ever taught us re directing...."If in doubt, throw it out."
    Need fencing equipment? See me at H.O.M. Fencing Supply

    Going to your first tournament? Read "Choose yer weapon, Laddie (or: Dude, where's my foil?)"

  5. #5
    Senior Member Array peet's Avatar
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    1. Pause for a span of one breath between "Halt" and making the call. Everyone has had the experience "I knew the call was wrong right after I started to say it". If you take one breath before the call, that realization will occur right before you start to talk instead of right after. But do it consistently with every call, or that one time you're not immediately sure, it'll be obvious and the fencers will lose confidence in you.

    2. When you're new, work on the calls first and the cards second. Many new refs (myself included when I was new), get the idea that a good ref penalizes every offense. Well, that's absolutely true; but until you're a good ref, focus on the calls first and the penalties second.

    3. Listen to the coaches (after the bout). During the bout they don't exist, but after the bout they may have good feedback. Listening to them and thanking them for their input does not mean that they are right and you are wrong. It just means that you are treating them with respect, which makes (most of) them more likely to treat you with respect.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Array Omar Bhutta's Avatar
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    1. Practice. With a coach. The same way fencers practice, referees must practice. This does not mean reffing a tournament every few weeks. This means going to the club every week, and practicing on any level bout that you can. For example, I go to the club twice a week solely to referee. And I am not referring to a fencing coach, I mean a referee coach. Find a mentor who you respect and can help. The more you see, the more experiences you can draw on for pattern recognition.

    1a. Practice your hand signals! I still practice mine once a week in front of a mirror for 5 minutes. People will judge you on your appearance. Make them crisp. Make them flow seamlessly. Besides, that is one less thing to think about during a bout; it should be automatic.

    2. Study. Memorizing the rulebooks does not help unless you understand the rules. The more you understand the language of the rulebook, as well as the intent of the rule, the less you need to think about in the moment and the easier it is to apply. The same way fencers develop muscle memory, so do referees. Doing this will also make you a better fencer.

    3. Be humble. You will make mistakes. Every day. Probably every bout. I know I still do. If you can accept that, you can learn from those mistakes and evolve beyond them. That acceptance also takes a whole lot of the self-pressure away. But make sure that you learn from your mistakes, otherwise what's the point.
    Omar J Bhutta
    USFA Rulebook Editor
    USFA Tournament Committee

  7. #7
    Senior Member Array CvilleFencer's Avatar
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    Lots of good advice already given!

    1. Know the "zone" for the weapon you are refereeing. For example, the triangle in epee. Also know your ideal refereeing distance and try to be there.

    2. Vary the time in between ready and fence, don't make it so that a fencer can predictably time you and get the jump on their opponent, especially in ROW weapons.

    3. Perform a "perimeter sweep" of the fencers and the strip out to the corners as the fencers are coming on guard. Every time.
    Just another lost soul saved by the (hit) First Church of EPEE!

    Bona Na Croin. "Neither Collar nor Crown"

  8. #8
    Fencing Expert Array Allen Evans's Avatar
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    I only have one:

    Rehearse difficult situations that you're going to find yourself in. Imagine your possible reactions and behavior when a coach yells about your call, or a fencer refuses to get on guard ,or some other situation in which you've got to maintain your cool.

    If you've encountered situations before that have made you uncomfortable as a referee -- and that you could have handled better -- imagine various responses that you could have given, and role play that behavior in your head.

    Mental imagery isn't just for athletes. Many of the skills I used as a fencer (warming up, pre-competition routine, breath control and relaxation techniques, mental rehearsals and imagery) were also helpful to me when I started to referee.

  9. #9
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    1. Carry a roll of tape. It has all sorts of uses - taping a body wire into a spool whose retaining device has failed (so you can finish a bout without interruption to get a replacement) - taping round a glove which keeps coming undone - ditty round the top of loose socks - threatening to tape a coach's mouth shut (with good humour, of course)...

    2. Carry paper, or a PDA with a scoring/timing program. It saves having to hold a clipboard if you are using a box without a remote control. A folded up piece of paper does far less damage to dodgy elbow/shoulder. (I actually hurt my shoulder signalling a hit with a clipboard in my hand this weekend)

    3. Follow your own advice (see 2 above)

  10. #10
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    1. Develop routines and stick with them. Check in your fencers at the beginning of the pool using the same routine every time. Test that weapon using the same routine every time. Things run more smoothly and you won't forget steps. (Of course, make sure that the routines are correct according to the rules. One national referee used to drive me crazy by checking inspection marks and plastrons at the beginning of every pool bout and bout within a team match.)

    Bonus, along those lines: Keep your cards in separate pockets. Yellow in front breast pocket, red in inside breast pocket, black in lower pocket. Then you'll never accidentally show the wrong card!

    2. Refereeing is public speaking. When you're speaking with your voice or your hands, speak slowly and clearly. Also remember that you're not just speaking to the fencers in front of you, but the coaches outside the pod and the spectators at the end of the strip. That coach asking "what was the yellow card for?" isn't being confrontational, he just didn't hear you.

    3. Grow a thick skin. Makes dealing with crazy coaches a lot easier. If you black-card a coach because he muttered something under his breath and cause a big brouhaha, you're not facilitating the smooth running of the tournament.
    "There's this kind of adrenaline rush when you really create something. I mean, why do you think Albert Einstein looked like that?" - Robin Williams

  11. #11
    Senior Member Array catwood1's Avatar
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    Thanks guys! I've definitely learned some new stuff here, I assume others have as well. I am humbled and impressed by Omar still practicing hand signals.

    Don't stop now!
    "Sir, didn't I parry"
    "You didn't take advantage of his blade enough, so no."

    (I guess i should have romanced it a bit more..."

  12. #12
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    1 Back away from the strip. Too many refs try and ref from 5' away, this is too close. The farther away the more of the action is in your field of view. 10-15' is ideal, for me.

    2. Observe but do not focus, if you focus on an element of the bout you will likely miss the rest of it. Things like stepping off the side of the strip corps a corps ducking in foil, are much easier to get past a ref who focused a person or specific action.

    3 Know the rules, there is nothing an epeeist loves more than a ref who doesn't have a very good understanding of the rules.
    Go to the well until the well is dry. When the well is dry find a new well.

  13. #13
    Fencing Expert Array edew's Avatar
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    Swear only in some obscure foreign language (preferably not any slavic language as well).
    =)=///

  14. #14
    Senior Member Array counter riposte's Avatar
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    1. There are two types of referees... those that are humble, and those that are about to be. Be Humble.

    2. Learn and Teach what you've learned. There's plenty that you don't know about fencing. There's also plenty of people that need and want to learn about fencing.

    3. Finally, In the words of Patrick Swayze, "Be nice." If someone is getting in your face, be nice...remember, that it's the job, it's nothing personal. The job is to diffuse a hostile situation, not escalate it.
    Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.

  15. #15
    Posting Hound Array Purple Fencer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notalent View Post
    1 Back away from the strip. Too many refs try and ref from 5' away, this is too close.
    Unless, of course, there's a wall and a ton of equipment bags 5 feet from the side of the strip...or some vendor at the far end (sorry about that....I THOUGHT I was out of the way)
    Need fencing equipment? See me at H.O.M. Fencing Supply

    Going to your first tournament? Read "Choose yer weapon, Laddie (or: Dude, where's my foil?)"

  16. #16
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    Learn a Slavic language so you can understand what goes on around you.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by notalent View Post
    1 Back away from the strip. Too many refs try and ref from 5' away, this is too close. The farther away the more of the action is in your field of view. 10-15' is ideal, for me.
    For me it's 10 feet for epee, 15 feet for foil, 20 feet for sabre. We get about 10 feet at NACs.

    Quote Originally Posted by edew View Post
    Swear only in some obscure foreign language (preferably not any slavic language as well).
    German didn't work so well for you, did it.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Array InFerrumVeritas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KD5MDK View Post
    For me it's 10 feet for epee, 15 feet for foil, 20 feet for sabre. We get about 10 feet at NACs.



    German didn't work so well for you, did it.
    I was under the impression that German was a Germanic language, not a Slavic one...

  19. #19
    Posting Hound Array Purple Fencer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KD5MDK View Post
    For me it's 10 feet for epee, 15 feet for foil, 20 feet for sabre. We get about 10 feet at NACs.
    If you have the room...the vast majority of local events I've been to have nowhere NEAR enough room for that kind of distance.

    My comment about the wall was exactly what happened to Terry at the SoCal JO quals last weekend. Cadet on Sunday wasn't too bad, but for the Jrs on Saturday he literally couldn't move from the centerline...and people kept walking in front of him during bouts.
    Need fencing equipment? See me at H.O.M. Fencing Supply

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  20. #20
    Fencing Expert Array edew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KD5MDK View Post
    For me it's 10 feet for epee, 15 feet for foil, 20 feet for sabre. We get about 10 feet at NACs.



    German didn't work so well for you, did it.
    I said something once that Omar carded me for.
    =)=///

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