stupid, very stupid question.

[epeenewbie]

. . .i'm new to fencing, as my username implies. I just got my sword and equiptment (epee). Being a guy.. the first thing i did was take it apart to see how it is put together. so, now i can't put it back together balanced. forgive my utter and entire ignorance (or make fun it of, but after you finish doing that, please tell me=), does the (sigh) grove.. thingie.. which was probably once meant to allow blood to flow thru it when the sword is pulled out of the body? anyway.. does the groove go on the top when the sword is held in first position, or bottom? also, can anyone explain what way the bell is positioned?

thanks. (if you could email me that'd be awesome, cb75@dana.ucc.nau.edu but i'll be checking the forum, too)

[veeco]

1- The groove goes on the top
2- As for the bell, make it so that when you are holding the weapon as if you were going to fence, the hole through which the blade goes through is excentred on the opposite side of your armed hand. (hope that makes sense...)

[epeenewbie]

Originally posted by veeco
1- The groove goes on the top
2- As for the bell, make it so that when you are holding the weapon as if you were going to fence, the hole through which the blade goes through is excentred on the opposite side of your armed hand. (hope that makes sense...)

so if i'm right handing, the blade is protruding closer to the left?

[edew]

Originally posted by epeenewbie
. . .i'm new to fencing, as my username implies. I just got my sword and equiptment (epee). Being a guy.. the first thing i did was take it apart to see how it is put together. so, now i can't put it back together balanced. forgive my utter and entire ignorance (or make fun it of, but after you finish doing that, please tell me=), does the (sigh) grove.. thingie.. which was probably once meant to allow blood to flow thru it when the sword is pulled out of the body? anyway.. does the groove go on the top when the sword is held in first position, or bottom? also, can anyone explain what way the bell is positioned?

thanks. (if you could email me that'd be awesome, cb75@dana.ucc.nau.edu but i'll be checking the forum, too)

Hope you didn't do that as well with your first computer or car! (Now, does the network card go here, or does the graphics card go there?)

Anyway, the groove is on top. Top meaning that's where your thumb would lie (unless you hold it wrong). The hole in the bellguard to pass through the tang of the blade has a notch (or two) in it. That notch is to allow the wires to run through without being squeezed. Thus, the notch is located also at the same position as the groove, that is, where your thumb would be.

Now, if you have a single notch hole, then there's no issue of how it's positioned: it's fixed. If there are two notches, choose the one that makes the bell guard cover your knuckles the best. (There are some people who arrange their bellguards to protect differently, but those folks are few and far between, and they know exactly what they're doing and won't be bothered by this explanation.)

Now, if you got an electric epee, that is, came with wires and socket and such, you will have to do a lot more work. I'll assume for the moment that you didn't get an electric epee.

In that case, slide the bellguard onto the blade with the (proper) notch at the top side of the blade. That is, the grooved side. Push it all the way to the shoulder of the blade, where the tang turns into the actual blade. (I'm assuming you're sliding the bellguard onto the blade from the tang end and not the business end of the blade.) The bell should be convex towards the business end of the blade.

Next, slide in the thumb pad, the felt or leather or plastic soft disk-shaped pad.

Now, slide the grip onto the tang. If you got a pistol grip, hold onto the grip with your thumb on top. Slide it onto the blade so that your thumb is on the same side as the groove. (If you notice, the grip also has a notch at the top. That's the end that goes towards the business end of the blade and the notch should be on top, aligned with the notch on the bellguard and the groove of the blade.)

If the grip was french (a plain looking grip with no particular prongs or other dongles), the above applies with the notch idea. It's also the fatter end that gets pushed into the blade inside the bell guard.

Insert the pommel, which is a nut for the pistol grip and a big heavy cylindrical (with circular or hexagonal cross-section) thing for the french grip. Tighten until you can't tighten no'mo.

If you hold the epee, the blade should angle a bit down and in if your thumb is at 12 o'clock.

If you took apart an electric epee. Good luck in putting everything back in. But I'll just say it's a real bear to do so.

[Catal]

Whatever you do, make sure the wire on the inside of the bellguard, is in a proper position before you attach the grip and pad. If the wire is not in between the notch in the front of the grip, you'll tighten the blade and the grip will cut the wire, even though it's behind the pad. I've ruined a few blades that way...

[lochinvar]

Originally posted by epeenewbie
<snip> grove.. thingie.. which was probably once meant to allow blood to flow thru it when the sword is pulled out of the body? <snip>

I know this doesn't have anything to do with your question (which Eric answered beyond my poor powers to augment), but I just couldn't let this comment go unremarked.

The "blood groove"--properly called the "fuller"--in the blade of a real sword serves two purposes, neither of which has anything to do with blood:

1) It makes the blade lighter than it would be if it were a solid cross-section; this shifts the balance point of the weapon back towards the hand. The closer the balance point gets to the hand, the more maneuverable the weapon is; the closer the balance point gets to the tip, the more the thing swings like an ax--more power, but hard to change direction.

2) It makes the blade stronger in the plane where you want strength (along the cutting edges) and more flexible in the plane where you want flexibility (sideways). It acts just like the web of an I-beam, which is strongest top-to-bottom and most flexible side-to-side.

The "groove" in a modern epee is not properly a groove at all; it's a lateral folding of the blade that gives it a V-shaped cross-section. It's function is to make the blade stiffer and less flexible than a foil blade, while still permitting it to bend in at least one direction.

[MattyCam]

Just a word of advice:

You don't fence with a sword. It's either a foil, epee or sabre.

Matt

[Piobaire]

Originally posted by lochinvar

The "blood groove"--properly called the "fuller"--in the blade of a real sword serves two purposes, neither of which has anything to do with blood:

The groove or depression also allows ease of withdrawal from the body. A deep thrust into a body--human or animal--can create a "suction" effect. The groove allows for a 'break' in the 'suction', thus allowing the blade or bayonet to be quickly removed.

I ran thruogh a near-dead camel in Iraq 10+ years ago (don't ask, long story...it involved scotch if that helps) and I actually had to give a good tug to get my bayonet back out of the beast.

[lochinvar]

Originally posted by Piobaire
The groove or depression also allows ease of withdrawal from the body. A deep thrust into a body--human or animal--can create a "suction" effect. The groove allows for a 'break' in the 'suction', thus allowing the blade or bayonet to be quickly removed.

I've heard this theory put forward before. I won't speak to the plausibility of this since I haven't seen nor heard of any evidence to either support or refute it.

However, even if true it's a happy side effect; it is not the primary reason for the invention or retention of fullers in sword blades.

[D'Artagnan1673]

Originally posted by MattyCam
Just a word of advice:

You don't fence with a sword. It's either a foil, epee or sabre.

Matt

Oh please.... The foil, epee and sabre evolved from swords so if someone wants to call them a sword, let them.

[Philistine]

Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673
Oh please.... The foil, epee and sabre evolved from swords so if someone wants to call them a sword, let them.

Well certainly he can call it whatever he wants.

On the other hand, use of the term "sword" as a replacement for epee will get you funny looks and most likely brand you as a beginner and dilettante among sports fencers.

Generically, "swords" are referred to in fencing as "weapons," FWIW.

I wouldn't think it strange if a clubmate said either "I broke my sabre" or "I broke my weapon," for instance. On the other hand, I'd think they were trying to be funny or ironic if they said "I broke my sword."

For some coaches (my old one, for instance ) this was a pet peeve. YMMV.

--Philistine

[Artisan]

I'll bet the sensitivity about the word "sword" comes from wanting to make a clear distinction betweeen the sport of fencing and "sword fighting" with its theatrical connotations of Musketteers, Errol Flynn, swing from chandeliers and dancing around in tights. I'm sure olympic wrestlers feel similarly about the WWF as a "de-legitimizer" of their avocation

However, they indeed share a common origin. When Fencing split off from Dueling it was long enough ago - and apparently not with an accompanying myth such as _Abner Doubleday's Invention of Baseball_ (nobody calls a baseball bat a "club," do they?) that the distinction will be forever blurred. Contemporary SCA and classical Fencing only furthers the misnomer.

As far as fullers and blood grooves go - thats nonsense. The fuller evolved from the methods of forging and for mechanical utility of strength and weight. "Blood grooves" are used in cutlery for skinning, filleting, slicing. Period.

-Art

[Psi Shadowdark]

i agree with D'art on this one, really whats the diffence? if i take a real rapier and dull it down is it no longer a sword?

[edew]

Two proponents of using the term "sword". One is nicknamed "D'Artagnan" and the other "Psi Shadowhawk". How come that seems to make sense?

[D'Artagnan1673]

If you will re-read what I posted, you will note that I did not say I used the term sword, but that I do not see a problem with it. I actually use the term epee or epee du combat if I'm really in a vein.

[achilleus]

It's funny, cuz as a sport fencer, I don't refer to my equipment as swords. They are epees or foils, sword just seems so inappropiate.

But, the word for sword in french is epee.
The word for sword in Spanish is espada, and that's how the epee is referred to in Spanish speaking countries.

I think it boils down to yes they belong to the family of swords, but in this day and age and in our sport a more specific name for our weapons is neccessary. To differentiate our sport from the various other sword disiplines/hobbies out there.

[JEC]

I agree with Achilleus, and I'll take it on step further that may get me in trouble. Why they fence epee in the pentathlon instead of sabre or foil?

[Psi Shadowdark]

i never have called my foil a sword, but if someone says, my sword broke, i wouldn;t think much of it. thats all i mean

[Psi Shadowdark]

i also think achillies reasoning is sound =)
and why does my named go with sword?

[Tim P. Miceli]

Originally posted by Psi Shadowdark
i agree with D'art on this one, really whats the diffence? if i take a real rapier and dull it down is it no longer a sword?

Sure it is, now it just has what is called a bated blade, these were used for practice, they even had bated longswords.